Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[RandomGuy.]

11 minutes ago, The Woolshed said:

 

Yeah that’s fair enough. But I’m adamant that one win could spark a ‘revival’ of results if not performances. I’ve not been to a game since Aberdeen beat us in Perth and have no plans to until Aberdeen away the end of March so its difficult to comment on individuals, but on the face of it we’ve become a real soft touch.

 

Even games we've won we haven't played well. I've not seen us play well all season, but we apparently played well away to Hibs, Rangers, Celtic and Hearts. 

[Mr Heliums]

3 hours ago, The Woolshed said:

 I’m adamant that one win could spark a ‘revival’ of results if not performances.

Absolutely.  We can discount the matches against Hearts - a distraction now - and Celtic. But the home game against Ross County is huge. Win that, and any momentum it starts could keep us safe.

Finger-pointing at the board, as more and more are doing,  is harsh: they're essentially volunteers following a 30-year-old policy of balancing the books that the press was fawning over until we started losing. Yes, mistakes have been made and we need an injection of vibrancy. Our biggest board weakness is in not telling the club's story: whether that's promoting season tickets in the summer of 2014, or communicating how innovative we are in some ways: free tickets for kids is the sort of generous and forward-looking initiative that no other club has the guts to do yet is repeatedly underplayed. But the board can certainly help now by making sure fans get along to that County game. Two-for-one, discount tickets, whatever. It has to happen.

The manager should take most of the blame for our condition. The brutal fact is that with the fleeting exception of O'Halloran, not one permanent arrival at the club has strengthened a position since 2013.  Tommy has belatedly admitted he's been too loyal.  But most objective viewers saw long ago that MacLean and Anderson were not the players they were in 2013-2014 when they had strong partners. Tommy's griping about budgets are a Steve Lomas echo. The only difference is Lomas sometimes spent his money wisely. 

That said, Tommy's astute man-management and tactical nous has brought us cup success and fantastic European nights. So his lack of attention to recruitment during this time is forgivable. He deserves our support now we're in a position he's never faced before. Who knows - if we survive this, maybe this will be the making of him. I'm certainly too much of a romantic to watch the best period of supporting Saints end in the brutality of a sacking.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Mr Heliums

[PauloPerth]

2 hours ago, Mr Heliums said:

Absolutely.  We can discount the matches against Hearts - a distraction now - and Celtic. But the home game against Ross County is huge. Win that, and any momentum it starts could keep us safe.

Finger-pointing at the board, as more and more are doing,  is harsh: they're essentially volunteers following a 30-year-old policy of balancing the books that the press was fawning over until we started losing. Yes, mistakes have been made and we need an injection of vibrancy. Our biggest board weakness is in not telling the club's story: whether that's promoting season tickets in the summer of 2014, or communicating how innovative we are in some ways: free tickets for kids is the sort of generous and forward-looking initiative that no other club has the guts to do yet is repeatedly underplayed. But the board can certainly help now by making sure fans get along to that County game. Two-for-one, discount tickets, whatever. It has to happen.

The manager should take most of the blame for our condition. The brutal fact is that with the fleeting exception of O'Halloran, not one permanent arrival at the club has strengthened a position since 2013.  Tommy has belatedly admitted he's been too loyal.  But most objective viewers saw long ago that MacLean and Anderson were not the players they were in 2013-2014 when they had strong partners. Tommy's griping about budgets are a Steve Lomas echo. The only difference is Lomas sometimes spent his money wisely. 

That said, Tommy's astute man-management and tactical nous has brought us cup success and fantastic European nights. So his lack of attention to recruitment during this time is forgivable. He deserves our support now we're in a position he's never faced before. Who knows - if we survive this, maybe this will be the making of him. I'm certainly too much of a romantic to watch the best period of supporting Saints end in the brutality of a sacking.

So much truth, so much common sense. 

 

[cilitbang]

4 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

He's lost his motivation, it seems. His "woe is me" act has been growing for a while now, spends the whole time blaming the chairman for not signing who he wants, and is now blaming the players for not getting results. He might be right, chairman is a well known tight arse and there's a lot of individual mistakes, but I'm not convinced he's blameless here, I can't think of a single player he's brought in who's a long term solution to any problem. His most successful signings MOH/Swanson leave after a season and then your looking at Shaughnessy as the best, a lower half CH who simply can't cope with physical strikers. 

Scougall has always looked dangerous anytime I have seen him agaisnt us (granted TW isn't playing him as a 10). Is he injury prone/ doesn't track back/ lose interest if going gets tough?

[RandomGuy.]

6 minutes ago, cilitbang said:

Scougall has always looked dangerous anytime I have seen him agaisnt us (granted TW isn't playing him as a 10). Is he injury prone/ doesn't track back/ lose interest if going gets tough?

He's struggled out wide, generally getting doubled up on with absolutely no support, looked decent in the number ten role in the couple of games he's had there, but in terms of bare facts he's not contributing. Always works hard but nothing seems to come off for him. 

[Kyle]

6 minutes ago, cilitbang said:

Scougall has always looked dangerous anytime I have seen him agaisnt us (granted TW isn't playing him as a 10). Is he injury prone/ doesn't track back/ lose interest if going gets tough?

Nope - he scraps away the full game for us even though he doesn't have much of a physical presence. His biggest issue is he's more often than not played out of position (on either wing, rarely in his favoured number 10 where he's been most effective for us). Quality and effort both clearly there , though he probably needs to contribute more in terms of goals and assists.

 

[Radford]

Scougall has let the manager down. I'm not a fan of assist stats as there are too many variables but in this instance it is a decent measure and he's not filled the void left by Danny Swanson in terms of product. He does look good at times (including last night) but window dressing doesn't win you points. There are other creative players in there but he was the big hope and will be getting rewarded as such; he certainly hasn't justified it so far. And neither the chairman nor the manager can be accused of a lack of ambition when it comes to bringing him in.

 

[RandomGuy.]

Tbf to Scougall his "key passes" stat is one of the better ones in the league, and he's been crippled by having the "movement" of Steven Maclean in front of him. The hope was we'd get two pacey wingers and a pacey striker to give him options when on the ball. 

I also don't think TW is seeing Scougall and not Swanson yet either, fwiw. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by RandomGuy.

[Radford]

Can you paste the "key passes" figures please. And what the criteria is. Thanks in advance.

[Kyle]

[RandomGuy.]

10 minutes ago, Radford said:

Can you paste the "key passes" figures please. And what the criteria is. Thanks in advance.

[Radford]

When is that from? Is having 20 players (at least one from 9 other teams) above you that impressive? Not sure KP impresses much more than assists. But if you think Scougall is doing the business...

[RandomGuy.]

2 minutes ago, Radford said:

When is that from? Is having 20 players (at least one from 9 other teams) above you that impressive? Not sure KP impresses much more than assists. But if you think Scougall is doing the business...

Was posted up on January 30th.

I don't think he's doing the business, Im just saying he's shown he can create chances even in a poor team, when out of position, so it's a bit harsh to be blaming him. 

[PauloPerth]

5 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Was posted up on January 30th.

I don't think he's doing the business, Im just saying he's shown he can create chances even in a poor team, when out of position, so it's a bit harsh to be blaming him. 

I agree. To say he has let the manager down when he has been played in his best position twice seems very harsh.

He hasn't set the heather alight by any means, but can anyone name one Saints player who has?  Who is having a successful season for us so far? We are comfortably the lowest scorers in the league and let in soft goals nearly every game. Hardly form that will let any creative player stand out.  

 

[Radford]

Scougall was targeted and brought in to replace Swanson and from comments at the time from both the manager and chairman, it was at a financial level that was greater than what we'd usually extend to. That brings with it expectation and requirement.

Put simply, has he justified the investment made in him to replace Swanson? We can make excuses for any player but it still boils down to doing what you were brought in to do. And I like Scougall...

[RandomGuy.]

19 minutes ago, Radford said:

Scougall was targeted and brought in to replace Swanson and from comments at the time from both the manager and chairman, it was at a financial level that was greater than what we'd usually extend to. That brings with it expectation and requirement.

Put simply, has he justified the investment made in him to replace Swanson? We can make excuses for any player but it still boils down to doing what you were brought in to do. And I like Scougall...

If Scougall was signed to replace Swansons goal return then its not him that needs questioned, I doubt he's scored over five goals in his whole career. 

He creates scoring chances, which stats show he's doing for us, so what else are we expecting? Or are you away to cite assists despite constantly saying theyre not an accurate way of measuring a players effectiveness? 

[Kyle]

10 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

If Scougall was signed to replace Swansons goal return then its not him that needs questioned, I doubt he's scored over five goals in his whole career. 

He creates scoring chances, which stats show he's doing for us, so what else are we expecting? Or are you away to cite assists despite constantly saying theyre not an accurate way of measuring a players effectiveness? 

I'm presuming you mean 5 goals in a single season in his whole career rather than his career generally? He's managed 6 in a season for Livi and 5 for Sheffield United, but generally speaking your point about scoring stands. We were always going to take a hit in terms of goals scored when comparing Swanson and Scougall, but I think it was hoped that the other two 'jewels' (halcyon days, discussing dem jewels)  would more than make up for that, bearing in mind a number of Swanson's goals were either penalties or in the league cup (or both). O'Halloran got 5 in a burst, Johnstone has managed a couple so we're probably not far off parity between those 3 players and Swanson in terms of goals in the league to this point this season.

Where Scougall falls down (and it isn't entirely his fault) is the chances Swanson created for his team mates. There are extenuating factors obviously  -Swanson is more comfortable playing wide than Scougall and no one can really account for the sudden and drastic drop in Macca's usefulness to the team. Scougall can't hide from the fact that he has been no where near as productive as a player commanding such a wage should be. He's looked good, plenty of flashes of nice play and he has linked up well with players on occasion but the team desperately needs a creative outlet and he's the one that we have to look to for it. Here's hoping Wotherspoon's form picks up (although he's been poor for 18 months now bar a brief spell at the start of this season) and Williams turns out to be a good player to lighten Scougall's load a bit and to give him a couple of technically gifted players to play off. Alston should be that too, but I've more or less given up on him now. 

[Radford]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

He creates scoring chances, which stats show he's doing for us, so what else are we expecting?

My eyes aren't seeing these scoring chances, are yours? All these various statistics are very nice but no substitute for watching matches and I'm just not seeing this creative force. In fact, I'm struggling to remember any glaring opportunities he's created that should have been put away. He's tricky and skillful but do you get a sense of expectation when he's on the ball? That was certainly there with Swanson for me. I do still harbour hopes he can live up to expectation.

Also, I'm certain you have the capability of checking the goalscoring records of both Swanson and Scougall.

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, Kyle said:

I'm presuming you mean 5 goals in a single season in his whole career rather than his career generally? He's managed 6 in a season for Livi and 5 for Sheffield United, but generally speaking your point about scoring stands. We were always going to take a hit in terms of goals scored when comparing Swanson and Scougall, but I think it was hoped that the other two 'jewels' (halcyon days, discussing dem jewels)  would more than make up for that, bearing in mind a number of Swanson's goals were either penalties or in the league cup (or both). O'Halloran got 5 in a burst, Johnstone has managed a couple so we're probably not far off parity between those 3 players and Swanson in terms of goals in the league to this point this season.

Where Scougall falls down (and it isn't entirely his fault) is the chances Swanson created for his team mates. There are extenuating factors obviously  -Swanson is more comfortable playing wide than Scougall and no one can really account for the sudden and drastic drop in Macca's usefulness to the team. Scougall can't hide from the fact that he has been no where near as productive as a player commanding such a wage should be. He's looked good, plenty of flashes of nice play and he has linked up well with players on occasion but the team desperately needs a creative outlet and he's the one that we have to look to for it. Here's hoping Wotherspoon's form picks up (although he's been poor for 18 months now bar a brief spell at the start of this season) and Williams turns out to be a good player to lighten Scougall's load a bit and to give him a couple of technically gifted players to play off. Alston should be that too, but I've more or less given up on him now. 

I don't think there's any doubt he's not been as good as he was wanted, or needed, but I find it bizarre he's been targeted for ire. 

[Radford]

1 minute ago, RandomGuy. said:

I don't think there's any doubt he's not been as good as he was wanted, or needed, but I find it bizarre he's been targeted for ire. 

Targeted for ire? Really? It's a discussion about a player, coincidentally kicked off when you responded to a post by saying there wasn't enough end product from him...

And nobody has even said they don't like him as player!