Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[RandomGuy.]

14 minutes ago, NYD1997 said:

The one person who seems to be getting off far far too easy in all of this is the HOR. When he joined the club he should have had a list for every position of suitable targets, which does not appear to have been the case. The only player who from the obvious outset seems to be his signing is Eetu, who doesn’t appear to fit our scheme and way of playing (whether the scheme and way of playing is the right way is another matter)

 

If you look at the guys that have been brought in as free agents - they have either been recommended by Gary Rowatt or one of our own players has done work to get them in - which then questions why weren’t players like this on our HOR’s radar? And why is he not bringing in players in positions we need? That is the main part of his job and so far he has failed at it.

 

On 12/12/2021 at 14:07, RandomGuy. said:

I guess it depends on how the "system" all works.

If the manager and HOR are both trying to find players to sign then who gets the final say on who you choose? Scott Boyd?

 

[Radford]

30 minutes ago, The Saintee said:

Bizarre to single out Vertainen when other mistakes by other players are just glossed over. 

Two consecutive games last season around this time we lost goals (and ultimately points) because Stevie May lost possession by not being strong enough. 

But last night, Davidson has honestly described as "excellent" his performance. 

These next few weeks are huge. 

[NYD1997]

Just now, RandomGuy. said:

 

 

If that is the case it’s either that he isn’t going to Scott Boyd with players, or alternatively the players he is going with are either not good enough or far out of our price range 

[RandomGuy.]

4 minutes ago, NYD1997 said:

If that is the case it’s either that he isn’t going to Scott Boyd with players, or alternatively the players he is going with are either not good enough or far out of our price range 

Ultimately we need to wait until January to judge the HOR, as he came in far too late for the Summer window, and then trying to sign free agents is always shit.

Edited December 16, 2021 by RandomGuy.

[NYD1997]

1 minute ago, RandomGuy. said:

I can't comment too much but none of this is correct.

So you don’t know how the system works but can say that I’m incorrect when giving 2 viable reasons….

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, NYD1997 said:

So you don’t know how the system works but can say that I’m incorrect when giving 2 viable reasons….

As I said, January is the time to judge what he's doing. Every recommendation from him likely has to go through the manager, then negotiations start, and the Summer window was almost done by the time he came in.

If Davidson is simply saying no to all his suggestions regardless because he found a player he wants himself, like Ali Crawford, then who's to blame?

[Radford]

16 minutes ago, NYD1997 said:

The one person who seems to be getting off far far too easy in all of this is the HOR. 

Sorry but this is miles wide of the mark. I guarantee you he would have had exactly what you suggested in lists of players and he'll also have a strategy. I suspect that doesn't involve many players over 30 or only available short-term. 

Look how quickly he got the Vertainen deal done (the signing, for a fee, not the permit) and the manager's own quotes at the time were about an attacker that was a bit different for us. The players are out there if the manager wants them. 

But I doubt he'll hang around for long if all future signings need to be signed off by Gary Rowett.

[Jamie_B]

I'm surprised at the strength of CD's comments on Vertainen last night. I didn't mind him trying the wee flick - if it comes off it releases us for a quick break, and if it doesn't then we're on the back foot, yes, but have about nine players behind the ball. The primary cause of that goal being lost was McCart completely losing Morelos.

I don't really know what to make of Vertainen yet. He's only played about 200 minutes of football - and pretty much none of it has been in the optimum circumstances. He got an hour against Dundee in one of the worst team performances we've put out in years - but the rest has either been against Rangers, Celtic, Hibs and Aberdeen - basically the better teams in the league. He has shown flashes of good control and skill, a willingness to drive at defenders. He wants to get the ball down and run and move with it. But equally, some of his decision making isn't great - e.g last night he picked the ball up in the middle and had Rooney absolutely powering down the right into space - but instead held it and tried to shift it left into a narrow gap. That's maybe something that comes with more playing time. Nothing, so far, has ever come from his driving runs - they've always broken down just as he gets to the last man. Again, does that start to pay off as he gets more game time, or is he going to be a George Williams style player where things "nearly" come off for him, but never quite do?

I definitely wouldn't be dumping on him last night, however. We need to jettison Crawford from the team. Devine probably deserves to start again on Saturday. Viv should be playing as well. We're absolutely at the point where we need to trust that our central defenders and goalkeeper provide a solid enough base that Rooney and Devine can drive forward at will, and that we can play three up front, with someone like Vertainen given the licence to try things that may lose us possession in the knowledge that the players behind him are more than capable of stopping most threats.

In the fullness of time nobody is going to give a f**k if we put in a meek performance at Ibrox and lose 2-0. They will if we play like that at home to Ross County next week and lose 2-0. That game is becoming an enormous must win encounter for both sides at the moment.

We've got the fourth best defensive record in the league despite the fact we're spending virtually every game on the back foot with a maximum of 40% possession most weeks. The problems are at one end only, and as far as I'm concerned we've got the players to be scoring far more than 0.5 goals per game, as we are just now. It is extremely rare for a team with a good defence to end up going down - normally you go down because you can't keep it out at your own end. That's not really an issue for us. As far as I'm concerned we've got the players to play a far more expansive game with a solid base behind them.

RWB - Rooney/LWB - Devine - both with the freedom to drive forward at every possible chance.

A central midfield pairing of any two of Davidson/Bryson/Craig with Butterfield ahead of them

Any two of Vertainen, Kane, May, Middleton and Viv starting up front.

Are we seriously suggesting that with one of the best defences in the league, a combination from the above can only expect to score half the number of goals that, say Dundee - with Danny Mullen starting up front most weeks - have scored this season?

 

[The Saintee]

29 minutes ago, Radford said:

Two consecutive games last season around this time we lost goals (and ultimately points) because Stevie May lost possession by not being strong enough. 

But last night, Davidson has honestly described as "excellent" his performance. 

These next few weeks are huge. 

He's set his stall out that he values work rate over anything else.

[FrankChickens1]

Vertainen's performances haven't helped explain why Davidson kept him out the team for so long.

Like yeah fair enough Davidson could probably see in training he was gonna give the ball away a lot. But now he's in the team, and giving the ball away a lot. 

Maybe if he'd actually been allowed on the park a bit he might have had his casualness kicked out of him a bit earlier, rather than through the crunch winter period. 

[tree house tam]

The cracks under pressure are starting to show from wee Callum.

 

I'd also put forward the idea that the only reason our defensive stats look reasonable is because we have had 9 players behind the ball this season. 

Time for a back 4 and attacking the opposition imo.

 

[tree house tam]

Interesting how Callum says Kane is his main striker. What's his stats Random? Particularly shots versus minutes, then shots on target versus minutes? 

What's folks rough idea for a main strikers stats to be? 4 on target per game seems reasonable to me, below that I'd say they weren't very good.

[Widge]

I think what Callum needs to realise is, that should we actually set out to try and win games and score goals and still lose, then there may be a legitimate reason to blame the players and a lack of quality; however, as it stands the only person to shoulder the blame is him. He's setting the team up to play defensively and not concede (which we're still failing at), but for me he's the sole reason we're not scoring goals or even creating chances. Do I think we need a change of manager, not I don't, but he's got to have realised that this stubborn belief isn't getting him or the team anywhere. 

It's times like this where you'd expect experienced players like Craig, Bryson, May to a certain extent to turn around and ask the manager what they can do differently going forward, at the same time you need your defenders to be shouting loudly about being able to cope if we dare attack, because our defence is arguably better than two thirds of the league for crying out loud!

[Ya Bezzer!]

40 minutes ago, tree house tam said:

Interesting how Callum says Kane is his main striker. What's his stats Random? Particularly shots versus minutes, then shots on target versus minutes? 

What's folks rough idea for a main strikers stats to be? 4 on target per game seems reasonable to me, below that I'd say they weren't very good.

4 shots on target from a striker would be pretty amazing in this league.

Here's the average shots on target for TEAMS

St Mirren - 4.3

Ross County - 4.1

Dundee - 4

Motherwell - 3.6

Livingston - 2.8

St Johnstone - 2.3

 

[PauloPerth]

Said it already but E2 was very wasteful last night and I wasn’t too surprised or disappointed when he went off. 
But for the manager to single him out is incredibly harsh.

If you were going to single out one player it would be Liam Craig, who should be made to come out and explain himself after that pathetic dive when in a great position to shoot. Ruined a good performance from him.

Not one forward player had a decent game last night. O’Halloran looked like a nervous 18 year old playing his first senior match. There was a ball down the right near the end of the first half that he was closest to yet he let the defender brush him aside and clear it that drove me mental. He’s a senior player, surely he knows he has to provide more.

Crawford probably impresses the manager because his miles per game stats are high. Despite it mostly being pointless. 
May was just himself, run around a lot and look busy but offering zero threat.

This is where I disagree with you @Jamie_Beatson.  My fear is that we really don’t have the attacking players to create or score.  It’ll be the midfield or set pieces where we get goals if any.

We really need to go 4-4-2 to get an extra body higher up the park,  as we can call them wing backs all we want, but how often have we seen them in the attacking third this season? It’s a 5 man defence every game.

Still think our midfield and defence looked decent in a tough match, and Clark is still in good form.  

Time for Viv to get a start, let’s see what he can do.

[tree house tam]

1 hour ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

4 shots on target from a striker would be pretty amazing in this league.

Here's the average shots on target for TEAMS

St Mirren - 4.3

Ross County - 4.1

Dundee - 4

Motherwell - 3.6

Livingston - 2.8

St Johnstone - 2.3

 

Aye, on target was maybe ambitious. Half a dozen shots on target should be a minimum in a decent side. Your stats just show none of those sides are decent.

[Sh*teAndMuck]

Where to start?

Callum’s comments and willingness to single out Eetu for indirectly losing us a goal is quite ridiculous.
Eetu’s touch is better than Kane’s. His decision making isn’t his strength and needs to improve, however Kane’s decision making is also poor. For me, I’d give Eetu a chance. He at least tries to get us forward and has a shot from time to time. Just needs backing and support of teammates on the pitch.  Same can’t be said of Kane. He shouldn’t be our main striker. No way. 

POSITIVES…

Butterfield looks like a player.

Viv looks like a player. He needs to be starting.

Devine looks more than capable and a more attacking option. 

NEGATIVES…

Liam Craig - absolutely terrible. If the manager wants to single someone out it should be him. Chance to score, or is Callum not interested in us scoring? Plus he’s got the experience to be able to take the criticism, but no, let’s pick on the young lad and the defensive side of things. 

O’Halloran - like it or not, he’s an experienced player now and should start playing like it and taking responsibility. 

Crawford - complete waste of a jersey. I’ll be raging if we go through with signing him. New midfielder comes in so we move Crawford up the pitch into a front three? If you’re playing that way, play Viv who actually plays in that position and get Crawford out of the team.

General set-up of the team - we simply need to start trying to attack. We need to get players up into the opposition box. Doesn’t matter who plays up front. If they’re on their own with no support it’s never going to work. Unless we’re going to sign Lukaku. 

The manager - Well he’s going to lose support rapidly if he is going to come out with nonsense like the Eetu thing last night. Needs to start focusing on going forward rather than defending. Listened to a clip of Kane’s interview the other day ‘we’ll have to defend well.’ What kind of shite is that coming from our so called main striker? He’s even got the forwards thinking about defending instead of attacking. 

Rant over.

(I reserve the right to continue ranting in due course)

Edited December 16, 2021 by Sh*teAndMuck

[tree house tam]

18 minutes ago, Sh*teAndMuck said:

The manager - Well he’s going to lose support rapidly 

Think this is well under way.

[RandomGuy.]

If he starts with MOH, Middleton, and May, up front against Motherwell and we barely have a shot then I think he'll lose a massive chunk of supporters tbh.

I honestly think he'll do that too.

[The Saintee]

Pundits - " What can Callum Davidson realistically win now that he's won the double?"

 

Callum Davidson- "The championship?"