Next UK Labour Leader - post Brexit

[WaffenThinMint]

13 hours ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

Unfortunately, today's Labour Party is anything but.

They've been eclipsed by the Tories in recent years because, by seeking to attract a few voters in marginal consistuencies, they're simply watering down Tory policies so as not to scare off the skittish swing votes. They've been doing this for so long they can't see a lot wrong in many Tory policies, so can't bring themselves to attack them as they should.

They've been eclipsed by the SNP because - and this is important, all you "centre-left" types - if you offer the electorate a raft of policies which prioritise your people over profit or some faded idea of being a world power, and then actually back that up in Government, people will vote for you.

ETA: I'm not sure you remember Godot as well as you thought, or maybe I'm just not getting the relevance of the quote.

So what's the Left's answer?

Same as post-79 - infiltrate a party (as members of other, opposing parties) which has a popular brand name and take it over, thinking people will still keep buying the "new improved flavour" out of habit. Brilliant plan! Can't think of where it could possibly go wrong the way it did in Bermondsey, Greenwich, etc, etc.

You really would have thought after Scotland even the Buckled Left might have finally accepted that Labour The Brand Name is no longer a guarantee of keeping, let alone winning seats. But no. It shows how wildly out of touch they are thinking that the tired old routine of infiltrate & take over will lead them to victory instead of - like all parasites - ultimately killing the host from within.

To remotely compare the SNP to the Corbynistas meanwhile - one group that learned from their mistakes the hard way over those who think if you keep proffering the same line long enough then like flared trousers they might just come back into fashion again - is nonsense.

Labour has been eclipsed by the SNP because - and this is important all you "Jeremy Corbyn is God" types - they were not in power for fifty odd years unbroken in the poorest areas of the land which still got progressively poorer and poorer under their watch, even when Labour was in power. When people like Dennis Skinner, Tony Benn, Tony Crossland, Eric Heffer, Norman Buchan, Maria Fyfe and the like were the mainstream - and still the poor got poorer. When the likes of Jeremy Corbyn were merrily turning Haringay Council into a nationwide laughing stock of self-indulgence over pragmatics.

People are going to vote for all that again? Seriously? A new generation who saw their parents and grandparents betrayed time and time again by "the people's party"?

As for the Waiting For Godot quote, it's Estragon retort to Vladimir's moment of disappearing up his own arse, of thinking that doing something for the sake of doing something is somehow in itself enobling - a metaphor to those indulging in self-aggrandisement gestures under the mask of "For A Better World" in general:

To paraphrase:

VLADIMIR:

Let us not waste our time in idle discourse! Let us do something, while we have the chance! It is not every day that we are needed. Not indeed that we personally are needed. Others would meet the case equally well, if not better. To all mankind they were addressed, those cries for help still ringing in our ears! But at this place, at this moment of time, all mankind is us, whether we like it or not. Let us make the most of it, before it is too late! Let us represent worthily for once the foul brood to which a cruel fate consigned us! What do you say?

(Estragon says nothing.)

It is true that when with folded arms we weigh the pros and cons we are no less a credit to our species... But that is not the question. What are we doing here, that is the question. We have kept our appointment and that's an end to that. We are not saints, but we have kept our appointment. How many people can boast as much?

ESTRAGON:

Billions.

Hence my quote of Estragon's retort to your "At least I can hold my head up, knowing I did what I could. How many will be able to say that?"

[DI Bruce Robertson]

Wow, some really deep thinking going on in this thread, and it's fantastic to see ideologies explained and questioned, and chapeau to WTM for the waiting for Godot analogies.
My thoughts, for what they are worth....
Labour is a party and movement that I always favoured as a young man, becoming active in the TU movement at the age of 17, and representing an albeit small local membership as branch shop-steward at National Conference before I turned 20.
My politics now are so very different, it's not because I've climbed the career ladder, and as such, see far less injustices towards myself as opposed to a 17 year old apprentice.
It's because, the self-serving interests displayed by Blair & his cronies completely made me re-think my allegiance to Labour.
At that time, the SNP were far more right of centre than they are now, and thus, I was turned off politics for a few years.
I'm now fully committed to Independence, as I see the difference in attitude to social justice displayed by the Scottish electorate as opposed to rUK.
This argument goes much deeper than the current state of Labour, it goes back to the grass roots movement of Kier Hardy.
After reading all the great posts, I'm far more likely to vote Labour in an Indy Scotland if they follow WRKs model.


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

[DublinMagyar]

Wow, some really deep thinking going on in this thread, and it's fantastic to see ideologies explained and questioned, and chapeau to WTM for the waiting for Godot analogies.
My thoughts, for what they are worth....
Labour is a party and movement that I always favoured as a young man, becoming active in the TU movement at the age of 17, and representing an albeit small local membership as branch shop-steward at National Conference before I turned 20.
My politics now are so very different, it's not because I've climbed the career ladder, and as such, see far less injustices towards myself as opposed to a 17 year old apprentice.
It's because, the self-serving interests displayed by Blair & his cronies completely made me re-think my allegiance to Labour.
At that time, the SNP were far more right of centre than they are now, and thus, I was turned off politics for a few years.
I'm now fully committed to Independence, as I see the difference in attitude to social justice displayed by the Scottish electorate as opposed to rUK.
This argument goes much deeper than the current state of Labour, it goes back to the grass roots movement of Kier & Hardy.
After reading all the great posts, I'm far more likely to vote Labour in an Indy Scotland if they follow WRKs model.


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

I hope to Christ you meant Keir Hardie?

[DI Bruce Robertson]

I hope to Christ you meant Keir Hardie?

Yes, yes I did, bloody fat fingers!


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

[pandarilla]

1 hour ago, DI Bruce Robertson said:

Wow, some really deep thinking going on in this thread, and it's fantastic to see ideologies explained and questioned, and chapeau to WTM for the waiting for Godot analogies.
My thoughts, for what they are worth....
Labour is a party and movement that I always favoured as a young man, becoming active in the TU movement at the age of 17, and representing an albeit small local membership as branch shop-steward at National Conference before I turned 20.
My politics now are so very different, it's not because I've climbed the career ladder, and as such, see far less injustices towards myself as opposed to a 17 year old apprentice.
It's because, the self-serving interests displayed by Blair & his cronies completely made me re-think my allegiance to Labour.
At that time, the SNP were far more right of centre than they are now, and thus, I was turned off politics for a few years.
I'm now fully committed to Independence, as I see the difference in attitude to social justice displayed by the Scottish electorate as opposed to rUK.
This argument goes much deeper than the current state of Labour, it goes back to the grass roots movement of Kier & Hardy.
After reading all the great posts, I'm far more likely to vote Labour in an Indy Scotland if they follow WRKs model.


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

 

I don't think your politics are different - I think they've stayed the same but the parties have changed.

[DI Bruce Robertson]

 

I don't think your politics are different - I think they've stayed the same but the parties have changed.

Yes, that's probably an accurate description.
But I am very wary of the "I didn't leave Labour, they left me"


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

[DI Bruce Robertson]

I hope to Christ you meant Keir Hardie?

Maybe Laurel & Hardy would be a better description of the current Labour Party (PLP).


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

[pandarilla]

6 hours ago, jmothecat said:

It isn't power vs principles, it's about not sticking rigidly to principles at the cost of power. Principles are necessary but to rigidly stick with them, without room for compromise doesn't work. I have sympathy with the idea that Labour should find a clear vision to represent to the electorate but it is essential that this vision actually appeals to the electorate. Consistently telling voters that they are wrong and they need to change to suit us doesn't work and this 'changing the electorate' angle is basically that but in nicer words.

Miliband's 35% strategy should be a worry to us all because it did not work. Would having an even more focused strategy really work any better? The problem with attempting to engage people who don't vote is by and large, even when part of a focused campaign, they tend to still not vote. Thinking again to Ed and his catastrophic decision to go on Russell Brand's YouTube show in order to engage these non-voting youths, which got headlines but ultimately bumped the shadow chancellor's major economic statement of the campaign off the front pages in an election we lost due to a perceived weakness on the economy.

It's not about telling people they're wrong - it's about convincing them to change their views.  If people vote for nothing other than self-interest then Thatcher has won - but I genuinely think it's more flexible than that.  They need to be given something worth voting for.

Miliband was nowhere near genuine enough. Anyone with a brain could see he was trying to play the same old game and just improve his 'style' and 'persona'.  The idea that the left united behind him is just daft.   

[NotThePars]

Hitchens wrote a decent article rubbishing the Trots infiltrating the party nonsense. They're completely incapable of any organised activity and the numbers involved in the organised far left are not even remotely near the numbers that have registered to join the Labour Party. Tom Watson and the rest of the PLP know that it isn't undefined Trots or the SWP that are causing this influx cause it's so ludicrous a claim so f**k knows why WTM is parroting it.

[DublinMagyar]

Maybe Laurel & Hardy would be a better description of the current Labour Party (PLP).


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

Aye, just no as funny and less competent.

[Granny Danger]

4 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Of course one could never accuse anyone from the AWL of being a careerist - none of them have ever worked because they are too busy living off Mummy's and Daddy's inheritances.

Was your encounters with Trots through student politics?  The reason I ask is that you always seem to insinuate that they are all middle or upper class.  I knew a lot of guys on the far left when I was active in politics and they were virtually all working class folk.  We didn't agree about politics but they were genuine, down to earth people who believed passionately in their cause.

 

[hehawhehaw]

On 24/06/2016 at 19:18, FlyerTon said:

After Corbyn....

 

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683075/Brexit-who-next-leader-Tom-Watson-John-McDonnell-will-Jeremy-Corbyn-resign

 

Latest odds:

 

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-labour-leader

When Sturgeon realises the snp are finished she micht jump ship. 

[WaffenThinMint]

43 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Hitchens wrote a decent article rubbishing the Trots infiltrating the party nonsense. They're completely incapable of any organised activity and the numbers involved in the organised far left are not even remotely near the numbers that have registered to join the Labour Party. Tom Watson and the rest of the PLP know that it isn't undefined Trots or the SWP that are causing this influx cause it's so ludicrous a claim so f**k knows why WTM is parroting it.

Oh please!

The SWP/SWSS has been attempting to infiltrate and take over branches of the Labour Party since back in their International Socialists days. You don't need to have the majority of members being from the SWP/SWSS, you simply have to spot the people you can easily threaten & bully to vote members into key branch posts, after which the rest is a doddle. History has shown they're also very good at working in conjunction with "fellow travellers" such as the old Militant of yesteryear when needs must.

Most of those that have registered to vote in the leadership elections will never, ever attend a single party meeting anyway, the same as happens in most parties where the number of activists as opposed to mere members is about one in ten if you're lucky.
Peter Hitchens will soft-soap that vicious gang of rapey little shits in the same way Tory & UKIP members will tend to soft-soap the NF & BNP if they held past memberships too.

Maybe that's why the Socialist Workers Party/Socialist Workers Student Society is so obsessed with calling all their opponents "Tory b*****ds" - they're like those Christians proclaiming publicly that "homosexuals will burn in Hell" whilst their closets are rattling away. Show me a diehard Trotskyite of today, & I'll show you the right-wing Tory b*****d of tomorrow. 

That this nutcase actually thinks the current Tory government is SOCIALIST says it all.

[jmothecat]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/28/john-mcdonnell-attack-on-lord-sainsbury-labour-party-donations

Sensible as usual from Alan Johnson.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

12 hours ago, Arsenal till I die said:

I've posted this on MSE, might as well paste it here:

Labour won't win a general election any time soon, with any leader. I hope Corbyn wins because Smith has made no complaints about the shocking way the members have been treated.

Having said that, I am disappointed with Corbyn and to a lesser extent McDonnell. At least McDonnell talks the talk about the way the members are being treated but I've yet to see any action.

Corbyn needs to reform the party, members accused of wrong doing have to have a right to defend themselves and that includes not being stripped of voting rights until they've been found guilty. If you commit an on the spot sackable offense at work, a procedure is still followed but not in the supposed party of the workers.

Either the NEC needs to be reformed so that the members of the NEC get a vote on what the NEC does (which didn't happen with the court case) or the chair of the NEC needs to be an elected position, or the NEC needs to be scrapped and the General Secretary needs to be an elected position.

The rules need to be tightened so that there is more clarity (if it's a tweet you're told what tweet it is) and that there is less discretion (you either get expelled for previous support of a party or you don't, the decision cannot be left to people who prefer the Tories to the Greens).

It needs to be the same rules for members and M.P's. In any other organisation in the world, the higher up you go the more responsibility you have. Only in the supposed party of the workers is the opposite true.

The joining process - if they're really concerned about entryism, do away with registered supporters. Put more questions on the application form and decide whether or not to admit someone, rather than admitting people then retrospectively expelling them. Do not cancel anyone's vote when they've already made it, this clearly provides room for corruption because they voted the wrong way!

If someone challenges him on a platform of doing more to reform the party - and I believe them - I will consider supporting them over Corbyn. 

The bit in bold - I would say that, in my experience, the opposite is true. The higher up you go, the more minions you can place between yourself and accountability. Just look at Sharon Shoesmith, for instance. She will, I am sure, have happily signed off on "workforce modernisation" (or job cuts, to you and me) which led to frontline social workers having unrealistic targets to meet. Fair enough, if it all goes OK. When it goes tits up, though, those responsible for setting levels of cover are the ones who should bear responsibility. And what happened here? She walked off with a £6ook+ payoff, with the Tribunal deciding she had been "unfairly scapegoated". Now, call me old-fashioned, but I would have thought that a six-figure salary would kind of reflect the level of responsibility required.

Our CJ system is another example. Many years ago, there was a simple rule of thumb - a Cat A prisoner gets out, the Minister walks. This was a fairly good incentive for those in power to make sure that Prisons were properly resourced. Nowadays, lessons are learned, lines are drawn, and we move on to another round of reductions in frontline staff and resource cuts.

That said, the Labour Party does indeed need to ensure that those in the PLP and the NEC are held to account. What we are seeing now is the start of that, I feel. As with wider politics, the great unwashed are starting to pay a wee bit more attention, and they're not liking what they see. This rise in awareness in the general populace may well see the stripping, splitting, or collapse of the current PLP - a consequence of the self-serving careerists being found out. The Labour movement, on the other hand, is on the threshold of a long, difficult but ultimately, possibly powerful renaissance.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

8 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Of course one could never accuse anyone from the AWL of being a careerist - none of them have ever worked because they are too busy living off Mummy's and Daddy's inheritances.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?

[WhiteRoseKillie]

7 hours ago, WaffenThinMint said:

So what's the Left's answer?

Same as post-79 - infiltrate a party (as members of other, opposing parties) which has a popular brand name and take it over, thinking people will still keep buying the "new improved flavour" out of habit. Brilliant plan! Can't think of where it could possibly go wrong the way it did in Bermondsey, Greenwich, etc, etc.

You really would have thought after Scotland even the Buckled Left might have finally accepted that Labour The Brand Name is no longer a guarantee of keeping, let alone winning seats. But no. It shows how wildly out of touch they are thinking that the tired old routine of infiltrate & take over will lead them to victory instead of - like all parasites - ultimately killing the host from within.

To remotely compare the SNP to the Corbynistas meanwhile - one group that learned from their mistakes the hard way over those who think if you keep proffering the same line long enough then like flared trousers they might just come back into fashion again - is nonsense.

Labour has been eclipsed by the SNP because - and this is important all you "Jeremy Corbyn is God" types - they were not in power for fifty odd years unbroken in the poorest areas of the land which still got progressively poorer and poorer under their watch, even when Labour was in power. When people like Dennis Skinner, Tony Benn, Tony Crossland, Eric Heffer, Norman Buchan, Maria Fyfe and the like were the mainstream - and still the poor got poorer. When the likes of Jeremy Corbyn were merrily turning Haringay Council into a nationwide laughing stock of self-indulgence over pragmatics.

People are going to vote for all that again? Seriously? A new generation who saw their parents and grandparents betrayed time and time again by "the people's party"?

As for the Waiting For Godot quote, it's Estragon retort to Vladimir's moment of disappearing up his own arse, of thinking that doing something for the sake of doing something is somehow in itself enobling - a metaphor to those indulging in self-aggrandisement gestures under the mask of "For A Better World" in general:

To paraphrase:

VLADIMIR:

Let us not waste our time in idle discourse! Let us do something, while we have the chance! It is not every day that we are needed. Not indeed that we personally are needed. Others would meet the case equally well, if not better. To all mankind they were addressed, those cries for help still ringing in our ears! But at this place, at this moment of time, all mankind is us, whether we like it or not. Let us make the most of it, before it is too late! Let us represent worthily for once the foul brood to which a cruel fate consigned us! What do you say?

(Estragon says nothing.)

It is true that when with folded arms we weigh the pros and cons we are no less a credit to our species... But that is not the question. What are we doing here, that is the question. We have kept our appointment and that's an end to that. We are not saints, but we have kept our appointment. How many people can boast as much?

ESTRAGON:

Billions.

Hence my quote of Estragon's retort to your "At least I can hold my head up, knowing I did what I could. How many will be able to say that?"

Bolded bit - You could just have said "New Labour" and be done with it.

Beckett - You're taking something from that passage which I don't think is there. The opposite, in my opinion - Estragon's retort is not about someone trying to make a difference, but rather the acceptance of an individual's insignificance.

 

Oh, and the Labour Party is the political arm of the Socialist movement - to talk of "left-wingers"  "infiltrating" the Labour Party is akin to accusing the Pope of gate-crashing the Vatican. It's understandable that, over the years, politicians have tried to cloak the message in euphemism, but now that Capitalism has failed us, what else is there?

[WhiteRoseKillie]

5 hours ago, DI Bruce Robertson said:

Yes, that's probably an accurate description.
But I am very wary of the "I didn't leave Labour, they left me"


Sent from a dark, dank hellhole.

Don't be wary of it - for millions of the working classes, those words are entirely true. Remember Mondeo man?

[NotThePars]

Again, if you truly believe that the massive influx of Labour members is down to far left Trotskyists and the no-hoper parties like the SWP then you're literally mental.

[dogmc]

Bolded bit - You could just have said "New Labour" and be done with it.

Beckett - You're taking something from that passage which I don't think is there. The opposite, in my opinion - Estragon's retort is not about someone trying to make a difference, but rather the acceptance of an individual's insignificance.

 

Oh, and the Labour Party is the political arm of the Socialist movement - to talk of "left-wingers"  "infiltrating" the Labour Party is akin to accusing the Pope of gate-crashing the Vatican. It's understandable that, over the years, politicians have tried to cloak the message in euphemism, but now that Capitalism has failed us, what else is there?

Exactly this its that tory leaning politicos have infiltrated labour looking for safe seats. There's barely two dozen actual trots in the uk n they would struggle to infiltrate their own bath. That people on here purporting to be 'labour' members think that opposing austerity trident n illegal wars constitutes 'hard left' whilst describing those who covered up bae n Saudi scandal as moderate tells you that the mail express n murdoch rags still influence too many minds