Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Cream Cheese]

2 hours ago, strichener said:

I'll hijack some of that enormous amounts of water given to England to wash away your tears. 

Just so we can get this clear, you are claiming that the US gave the UK government a bailout for Barclays and a share of this was then, via Barnett, distributed to Scottish Government.  If this is your claim, then I am not really sure how I can disprove it, nor why the onus would be on me to do so.  Perhaps you can provide some documentary evidence that shows these transaction occurring.

It's how the Barnett formula works you moron. I don't need to prove something that is common knowledge. It's like asking me to prove to you that the moon is round. I'm hardly going to silly myself proving something that everybody already knows.

[doulikefish]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

The only good thing to come out of Brexit is the utter humiliation of Michael Gove.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3871408/Woops-Red-faced-Michael-Gove-admits-mistakes-knifing-Boris-opens-door-Cabinet-comeback.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

Also the text Cameron sent to Boris "should have stuck by me mate"

[strichener]

It's how the Barnett formula works you moron. I don't need to prove something that is common knowledge. It's like asking me to prove to you that the moon is round. I'm hardly going to silly myself proving something that everybody already knows.

Why silly yourself with that reply? This isn't a question of how Barnett works but one of how the American Government's funds were directed to the Scottish government through a bailout to Barclays. Now if you could just show some proof of this then I will duly apologise for calling you a thick c**t. You thick c**t.

[McSpreader]

14 hours ago, Antlion said:

Yet you had no trouble supporting the egos of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Liam Fox despite the UK parliament being unable to run the country properly, racking up trillions of pounds of debt (making the UK the second-most debt-ridden nation on earth), and being uninterested in the needs of the people of the UK.

So obsessed have our politicians been with our neighbours across the channel that they haven't even exercised the powers they had properly. Instead our political scene is way too tribal, divisive, entrenched, exclusive......That's UK Nationalism. No place for a socialist.

But of course you wouldn't get all the negative attention you crave if you admitted this.

Yeah.....that doesn't make any sense whatsoever!.......Must Try Harder !

[Redstarstranraer]

14 hours ago, McSpreader said:

I have no fear of Scottish self determination I simply think it would be the wrong thing to at this time as it wouldn't be in Scotland's best interest. As such I favour the Union. That's my entitled opinion.

Of course.  Nobody would argue with your right to said opinion.

14 hours ago, McSpreader said:

When the Scottish Parliament attempts to run the country properly, fiscally competently and in the interests of all Scots not in the interests of the political  ambitions of one megalomaniacal leader  after another or narrow party political interests then I'll support Indy.

That one the other hand I don't believe for a minute.  The idea that Britnats such as yourself or RedRob would actually support independence if the Scottish government somehow 'proved itself' is disingenuous tosh.  If the Scottish parliament were running things to your satisfaction you'd undoubtedly claim it was proof of the marvellous benefits of being part of the Union and demonstrated there was no need for change.  What you call 'narrow party political interests' are no doubt initiatives such as the SNP targeting another independence referendum, i.e. you might consider supporting independence when it's no longer on offer. You make the 'generous' concession that if the Scottish government were to go away and shut up about constitutional affairs and somehow (it's hardly clear how exactly) 'govern properly' you may consider rethinking those very same constitutional affairs.  It's basically nonsensical cant through which by pretending to be oh so sweet and reasonable you can portray your opposition to independence as something other than British nationalism.  Literally nobody is going to buy it.

Funnily enough seeing as they've been reelected twice with an increased share of the vote it would appear that the Scottish electorate in general actually think the current administration is running the country 'properly' and 'competently'.  

14 hours ago, McSpreader said:

Our politicians haven't shown the political maturity required to run an independent Scotland. They can't even run a devolved Scotland effectively, so obsessed are they with our friends South of the Border. 

And now the Scottish cringe bites.  'Political maturity'?  What is that even supposed to mean?  The idea that Scots are not 'mature' enough to run their own affairs is just patronising drivel, especially coupled as it is to the inference that our 'big brothers' down south do have the requisite wisdom and ability to manage things we cannot yet cope with.  Constitutional affairs are serious and important political issues, so discussing them is hardly a sign of 'political immaturity'.  This idea that discussing self-determination for Scotland is actually a reflection of an obsession with England is ludicrous and bizarre.  As has been said above funny how it is the unionists on here who are the most keen to drag discussion of England into every conversation about Scottish independence.  The actual Yes campaign was noticeable for the political maturity it showed by focusing discussion almost entirely around what the powers, opportunities and challengers of independence would mean for Scotland.  The childish playground discourse of 'you're a nationalist so you hate England' is being invoked by you in vain here, again nobody's going to buy it.

14 hours ago, McSpreader said:

The trouble with us here is we try to be too much like the English. We should've found a different, more inclusive,  more progressive political way. Instead our political scene is way too tribal, divisive, entrenched, exclusive.....

Your argument, such as it is, really collapses around your ears here.  The idea that Scottish politics are tribal, divisive, entrenched and exclusive whilst Westminster politics are not is so pathetically laughable nobody is going to take it seriously.  Even at the best of times it would be implausible to say the least but at a time when an incredibly elitist Tory government is presiding over the shambles that is Brexit with all the associated division and rancour that has caused it becomes so absurd as to be comedic.  If the argument is meant to be that our politics are as bad as those of the 'English' for such vices then why exactly is that an argument for maintaining the union? 

 As an aside I'd be interested to hear which Western democratic countries are characterised by politics without tribal division or entrenched interests?  Every country has their political blocs and divisions, and there is no reason to expect Scotland to be any different under independence or the union.  Even before the rise of the SNP and the national question there were deep political divisions between different parts of Scottish society; it wasn't as if pre-Salmond nobody here ever disagreed about politics.  Still, amusing to see your little supposed dream of a Scotland under the union where everyone is supposedly pulling together without any division or disagreement, all somehow 'included'.

14 hours ago, McSpreader said:

That's Nationalism. No place for a Socialist.

I know you put a lot of effort into your trolling but do at least try and keep it consistent.  Only a few weeks ago you were arguing other workers shouldn't get Saturday pay because you don't.  Hardly the view of a committed Socialist like yourself surely?

[McSpreader]

1 minute ago, Redstarstranraer said:

Of course.  Nobody would argue with your right to said opinion.

That one the other hand I don't believe for a minute.  The idea that Britnats such as yourself or RedRob would actually support independence if the Scottish government somehow 'proved itself' is disingenuous tosh.  If the Scottish parliament were running things to your satisfaction you'd undoubtedly claim it was proof of the marvellous benefits of being part of the Union and demonstrated there was no need for change.  What you call 'narrow party political interests' are no doubt initiatives such as the SNP targeting another independence referendum, i.e. you might consider supporting independence when it's no longer on offer. You make the 'generous' concession that if the Scottish government were to go away and shut up about constitutional affairs and somehow (it's hardly clear how exactly) 'govern properly' you may consider rethinking those very same constitutional affairs.  It's basically nonsensical cant through which by pretending to be oh so sweet and reasonable you can portray your opposition to independence as something other than British nationalism.  Literally nobody is going to buy it.

Funnily enough seeing as they've been reelected twice with an increased share of the vote it would appear that the Scottish electorate in general actually think the current administration is running the country 'properly' and 'competently'.  

And now the Scottish cringe bites.  'Political maturity'?  What is that even supposed to mean?  The idea that Scots are not 'mature' enough to run their own affairs is just patronising drivel, especially coupled as it is to the inference that our 'big brothers' down south do have the requisite wisdom and ability to manage things we cannot yet cope with.  Constitutional affairs are serious and important political issues, so discussing them is hardly a sign of 'political immaturity'.  This idea that discussing self-determination for Scotland is actually a reflection of an obsession with England is ludicrous and bizarre.  As has been said above funny how it is the unionists on here who are the most keen to drag discussion of England into every conversation about Scottish independence.  The actual Yes campaign was noticeable for the political maturity it showed by focusing discussion almost entirely around what the powers, opportunities and challengers of independence would mean for Scotland.  The childish playground discourse of 'you're a nationalist so you hate England' is being invoked by you in vain here, again nobody's going to buy it.

Your argument, such as it is, really collapses around your ears here.  The idea that Scottish politics are tribal, divisive, entrenched and exclusive whilst Westminster politics are not is so pathetically laughable nobody is going to take it seriously.  Even at the best of times it would be implausible to say the least but at a time when an incredibly elitist Tory government is presiding over the shambles that is Brexit with all the associated division and rancour that has caused it becomes so absurd as to be comedic.  If the argument is meant to be that our politics are as bad as those of the 'English' for such vices then why exactly is that an argument for maintaining the union? 

 As an aside I'd be interested to hear which Western democratic countries are characterised by politics without tribal division or entrenched interests?  Every country has their political blocs and divisions, and there is no reason to expect Scotland to be any different under independence or the union.  Even before the rise of the SNP and the national question there were deep political divisions between different parts of Scottish society; it wasn't as if pre-Salmond nobody here ever disagreed about politics.  Still, amusing to see your little supposed dream of a Scotland under the union where everyone is supposedly pulling together without any division or disagreement, all somehow 'included'.

I know you put a lot of effort into your trolling but do at least try and keep it consistent.  Only a few weeks ago you were arguing other workers shouldn't get Saturday pay because you don't.  Hardly the view of a committed Socialist like yourself surely?

 

[WILLIEA]

10 minutes ago, Redstarstranraer said:

11 minutes ago, Redstarstranraer said:

Funnily enough seeing as they've been reelected twice with an increased share of the vote it would appear that the Scottish electorate in general actually think the current administration is running the country 'properly' and 'competently'.

This in a nutshell for me. As a left leaning Scottish Tory ( Is there such a thing ? ) I think the SNP administration has done a very good job

 

[McSpreader]

I didn't object to Saturday pay just  objected to them for getting a premium for working a Saturday when it falls into their normal contracted hours.  They ( junior doctors) are very well paid, Will get an 11 % pay rise on their basic pay  under the new contract and don't need to get a premium because their working week includes a Saturday or a Sunday. Nothing to do with Socialism that one.

I'm sorry you've put so much effort into answering my statements only to prove that you have misunderstood most of it......for example. If I said our politicians haven't shown the maturity to govern an independent state then that was a statement made in splendid isolation as a judgement on them. It was not by way of comparison to the English or any other nation on Earth. Same with the Divisive etc politics.....Comparing us to no-one else, just saying how it is.....Why you so sensitive ?

There are all sorts of problems with the way the SNP run Scotland from  failing to properly educate Scottish kids ( falling standards of attainment) reducing teacher /pupil ratios and failing to help more kids from less affluent backgrounds to reach higher education to  the Health service where key targets are not met and Health authorities are selling property to meet financial targets, which is unsustainable,  to not even managing to keep our roads in any fit state. Scotland receives more funding per head than any other part of the UK and Swinney  struggles to use it properly.

Social care costs are rising yet Council Tax has been frozen.

We have a Police Service not fit for purpose.

An ill-conceived Named Persons charter which is a shockingly poor concept. A gross invasion of privacy. Probably unworkable.

The ongoing centralisation of power into Holyrood from  Health Trusts, Local Authorities, The Police Service

One feature of politics in Scotland is the lack of Gov't accountability . Trade Unions, Church groups, Universities, Business groups and professional representative bodies are all reluctant to criticise the SNP because of the aggressive nature of the way they respond.     The Scottish middle class has largely been unaffected by SNP policies so also keep quiet. It's the poor, the less affluent that are suffering the most from the SNP.

But do we hold them to account. No. we spend all our time and energy on patting ourselves on the back for not voting Tory and not being English and smugly lying to ourselves that we have this wonderful left leaning progressive Govt when in fact we have an arrogant, right of centre, stagnant, divisive, delusionist Govt. that can't be criticised and which the Scottish people and civic bodies are failing to hold to account......

........A One Party Democratic Dictatorship.........

Something I'm ashamed of and want no part of.

As for Independence. If it was so obvious and compelling a choice for the material benefit of Scottish people then you wouldn't even have to argue the case. The truth is it isn't.

 

[Peppino Impastato]

Raging British nationalist in mental gymnastics and talking utter shit to cobble together feeble opposition to independence shocker.

[Alan Stubbs]

Too wee, too poor, too immature

[Redstarstranraer]

20 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

I'm sorry you've put so much effort into answering my statements only to prove that you have misunderstood most of it......for example. If I said our politicians haven't shown the maturity to govern an independent state then that was a statement made in splendid isolation as a judgement on them. It was not by way of comparison to the English or any other nation on Earth. Same with the Divisive etc politics.....Comparing us to no-one else, just saying how it is.....

I've already indicated to you that the idea Scotland is 'politically immature' is meaningless drivel in and of itself.  Even if you don't think you're comparing Scottish politics to any other nation it is entirely valid to point out that the politics of every other nation on Earth feature division and entrenched interests: i.e. using that as an argument against Scotland and only Scotland being independent is an asinine gambit.  Saying Scots aren't 'mature enough' to govern an independent state also insinuates whether you appreciate it or not that those states which are independent have reached the required level of maturity and indeed also that you think the UK government is suitably mature. You don't seem able to understand the implications of your own posts.

And you're not 'just saying how it is' that's your opinion.  Claiming that the Scottish government hasn't reached an arbitrary level of 'maturity' you yourself have decided is required before Scotland can manage its own affairs is hardly proffering some sort of objective fact.

The constant bleating that you're only offering observations not giving opinions isn't fooling anyone in any case.

26 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

Trade Unions, Church groups, Universities, Business groups and professional representative bodies are all reluctant to criticise the SNP because of the aggressive nature of the way they respond.    

There's absolutely zero evidence or justification for that claim as you well know.  

28 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

we spend all our time and energy on patting ourselves on the back for not voting Tory and not being English and smugly lying to ourselves that we have this wonderful left leaning progressive Govt when in fact we have an arrogant, right of centre, stagnant, divisive, delusionist Govt. that can't be criticised and which the Scottish people and civic bodies are failing to hold to account......

What a lot of 'delusionist' pish.  The SNP government has actually faced probably the most intensive scrutiny and criticism from the press of any Scottish government since devolution.  There is plenty of criticism of it out there in civil society as well in general.  You're criticising it right now and I doubt that a door in Hawick is about to be broken down by the SNP Thought Police in the wee small hours of this morning.  The efforts of Britnats to portray themselves as somehow being lone brave voices daring to stand up against an ever more oppressive SNP government whilst everyone else turns a blind eye out of fear or smug anti-English fervour is just pathetic. 

Actually 'an arrogant, right of centre, stagnant, divisive, 'delusionist' Govt.' would actually be a not bad representation of Theresa May's administration although to be fair to them I'm pretty sure much like the Scottish government they can be criticised.

 

32 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

A One Party Democratic Dictatorship

Democratic Dictatorship 

 

[RedRob72]

Raging British nationalist in mental gymnastics and talking utter shit to cobble together feeble opposition to independence shocker.

A number of points made by McSpreader above, unanswered though, with regards to the current governments level of performance, particularly the education system that we have so much invested in?

[JamieThomas]

6 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

A number of points made by McSpreader above, unanswered though, with regards to the current governments level of performance, particularly the education system that we have so much invested in?

The problem with carpet bombing diarrhoea is that anything salient also gets smothered in shite.

[John Lambies Doos]

McSpreader is a spoof... full off bluff and bluster. Bet he's got an old fat wife

[Loondave1]

What does this self-hatred even have to do with the subject at hand?

I must have missed the "self hatred" part of my post or maybe it's just you ?

[williemillersmoustache]

I know you put a lot of effort into your trolling but do at least try and keep it consistent.  Only a few weeks ago you were arguing other workers shouldn't get Saturday pay because you don't.  Hardly the view of a committed Socialist like yourself surely?

Epic quantities of telt, I fear wasted on a troll. Good read though. Thumbs up etc.

[dogmc]

The problem with carpet bombing diarrhoea is that anything salient also gets smothered in shite.

Particularly when said trolling is claiming the Scottish govt is failing to administer education NHS police etc etc properly yet those instutions are performing better under the Scottish govt than those run by Westminster. Hence the snp vote increases every election. The unionist arguments are becoming shriller and more desperate by the day.

[mjw]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14822963.UK_Government__faces___84bn_Brexit_related_black_hole_/?ref=twtrec


The Chancellor faces an £84billion “black hole” in next month’s Autumn Statement in the wake of the shock Brexit vote, according to a leading think tank.

The Resolution Foundation today warns of what it calls a "sharp deterioration" in the public finances.

In response the Chancellor Philip Hammond could raise taxes, cut spending or sign up to “significantly” increased borrowing over the next five years, it warns in a new report.

[Bishop Briggs]

27 minutes ago, mjw said:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14822963.UK_Government__faces___84bn_Brexit_related_black_hole_/?ref=twtrec


The Chancellor faces an £84billion “black hole” in next month’s Autumn Statement in the wake of the shock Brexit vote, according to a leading think tank.

The Resolution Foundation today warns of what it calls a "sharp deterioration" in the public finances.

In response the Chancellor Philip Hammond could raise taxes, cut spending or sign up to “significantly” increased borrowing over the next five years, it warns in a new report.

There is no data in the article to support the £84 billion figure.

Business confidence has bounced back - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/06/business-confidence-bounces-back-as-firms-voice-optimism-on-brit/.

Consumer confidence is at an all time high - http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/brexit-bounce-continues-uk-consumer-confidence-hits-five-year-high/

Northern Ireland is experiencing a consumer boom from the Republic - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37764732. That will bring in lots of VAT.

[JamieThomas]

Well if there's two publications I'd certainly trust to take to task any problems borne of right wing lunacy, it's the Telegraph and the Spectator.

I've got a feeling everything's going to be allllllright, lads.