Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Scary Bear]

3 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

It's easy to leave, just painful. It's only difficult if you're trying to leave while keeping all the benefits.

It’s an organisation which we have presumably helped fund and develop. I understand it’s easy to leave with no deal and create an absolute mess. I would have thought it would be better to allow a country the time to get an acceptable deal in place first. May thinks she has one most others think she doesn’t.

Either way, I voted Leave, so I suppose i’ll get whatever our hapless government negotiate for me.

I think I would still vote Leave after the Brexit experience. Can’t have a situation like this again.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

20 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said:

Christ! That old lie. Labour left a mess. You know fine well that the whole global economy went into meltdown. All starting in the US. The sheer greed of the banks led to the economic mess. And if you think that the UK could escape this you are a bigger moron than I thought.

[Detournement]

47 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

This 

Surely you aren't in favour of selective schools?

[weegienative]

26 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said:

Christ! That old lie. Labour left a mess. You know fine well that the whole global economy went into meltdown. All starting in the US. The sheer greed of the banks led to the economic mess. And if you think that the UK could escape this you are a bigger moron than I thought.

1) the crash was down to government interference in the mortgage market.

2) Labour had a reckless borrowing policy which was disastrous,  independent of the banking crisis. It was akin to someone in massive debt getting a credit card to pay it off.

3) crony capitalism allowed the banks to behave recklessly knowing they would receive bail outs. They should have been allowed to fail.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

^dislikes crony capitalism. Supports parties that support crony capitalism.

[Ross.]

9 minutes ago, weegienative said:

I think the death of UKIP probably explains the latest gains, however the migration away from Labour to UKIP was caused again by immigration policy.

I'd say the migration from Labour to UKIP was more to do with Labour appearing to leave behind their working class routes in doing everything they could to appease the middle classes. UKIP(The right in general rather than UKIP) were quick to pounce and turned it into a migration policy thing, when it was anything but. The blame for the majority of the UK's current problems has to go down to 40 odd years of poor governance in the face of a rapidly changing social and political landscape but rather than accepting responsibility for our mistakes and forcing huge changes across the whole of the UK, it was easier to blame it on "Mass migration and foreigners stealing our jobs", because that means people don't have to feel responsible for their own position in society.

[EvilScotsman]

7 minutes ago, weegienative said:

1) the crash was down to government interference in the mortgage market.

2) Labour had a reckless borrowing policy which was disastrous,  independent of the banking crisis. It was akin to someone in massive debt getting a credit card to pay it off.

3) crony capitalism allowed the banks to behave recklessly knowing they would receive bail outs. They should have been allowed to fail.

f**k me.

 

[Fullerene]

8 minutes ago, weegienative said:

1) the crash was down to government interference in the mortgage market.

2) Labour had a reckless borrowing policy which was disastrous,  independent of the banking crisis. It was akin to someone in massive debt getting a credit card to pay it off.

3) crony capitalism allowed the banks to behave recklessly knowing they would receive bail outs. They should have been allowed to fail.

Yes.  The problem with Labour was that there was not enough regulation and this is being said by people who constantly say there is too much regulation.

No pleasing some people.

[weegienative]

28 minutes ago, Ross. said:

My point is that there is clearly nothing like the level of irrational hatred that you assert(Given their gains), and secondly, that any "hatred" that is involved, while in many cases blind, is certainly not irrational in it's origins.

Pre 2015 mention Thatcher, coal miners or poll tax and see what the response was. When doing politics at school (late 90s early 00s) and learning about conservatism (small c) It fits almost entirely with my moral compass. Upon questioning my folks on why they always vote Labour, the irrational hatred became apparent. (We shall have to agree to disagree on the rationality of it).

In 2015 my folks and obviously many others like them, voted Tory for the first time. It seems identity politics and gambling with the safety of the public is enough to overcome that hated.

[weegienative]

11 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

^dislikes crony capitalism. Supports parties that support crony capitalism.

Who said I support any party? I use my vote because not to would be foolish. I vote for the least bad party, which embarrassingly for British politics is the Tories currently.

[weegienative]

7 minutes ago, EvilScotsman said:

f**k me.

 

No thanks, I'd rather you just agree or refute it with facts.

[jamieson87]

Another flowchart from the excellent Henry Zeffman. Where are we going then folks?

 

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

1 hour ago, pandarilla said:

Excellent post.

I find it surprising that not many people on the remain side of the debate have questioned the structures of the EU as a positive force in our life.

The Greece situation pretty much made my mind up about the organisation. The bullying tactics used was hard to just accept.

Ah, poor old Greece.

The country that had been an economic basket case for hundreds of years. Where corruption and fraud in public society were a way of life. Where tax-dodging was rife, and where governments paid little or no interest in collecting the tax due anyway.

It's also a country that had bankrupted itself countless times in the last century. Run up unsustainable debts, then effectively devalue the Drachma and declare itself bankrupt.

That poor old Greece.

The mistake the EU made was not by 'bullying' Greece into adopting modern, fiscal policies. It was by allowing Greece into the Euro and the ERM in the first place, before Greece got its house in order.

And even now, most Greeks want to remain in the EU.

 

 

[Ross.]

5 minutes ago, weegienative said:

Pre 2015 mention Thatcher, coal miners or poll tax and see what the response was. When doing politics at school (late 90s early 00s) and learning about conservatism (small c) It fits almost entirely with my moral compass. Upon questioning my folks on why they always vote Labour, the irrational hatred became apparent. (We shall have to agree to disagree on the rationality of it).

In 2015 my folks and obviously many others like them, voted Tory for the first time. It seems identity politics and gambling with the safety of the public is enough to overcome that hated.

Blind hatred, yes, I agree, but with perfectly rational origins. The de-industrialisation of the UK was inevitable but the complete lack of preparation, and more importantly, support for those affected, was abhorrent and absolutely designed to ensure that the traditional Labour areas were the worst affect over the long term. Anyone who had left leanings was perfectly rational in hating Thatcher and by extension, the Conservatives.

[weegienative]

8 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

Yes.  The problem with Labour was that there was not enough regulation and this is being said by people who constantly say there is too much regulation.

No pleasing some people.

Almost but not quite.

The interference came by way of government regulating that banks should ignore their fiduciary duty when assessing mortgage applications. I.e. giving mortgages to people who couldn't afford them.

[Mark Connolly]

3 minutes ago, Ross. said:

Blind hatred, yes, I agree, but with perfectly rational origins. The de-industrialisation of the UK was inevitable but the complete lack of preparation, and more importantly, support for those affected, was abhorrent and absolutely designed to ensure that the traditional Labour areas were the worst affect over the long term. Anyone who had left leanings was perfectly rational in hating Thatcher and by extension, the Conservatives.

You mean to say a Tory Government tried to enact something without having thought about the consequences?

I find that very hard to believe.

[Ross.]

1 minute ago, Mark Connolly said:

You mean to say a Tory Government tried to enact something without having thought about the consequences?

I find that very hard to believe.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[Detournement]

6 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

Ah, poor old Greece.

The country that had been an economic basket case for hundreds of years. Where corruption and fraud in public society were a way of life. Where tax-dodging was rife, and where governments paid little or no interest in collecting the tax due anyway.

It's also a country that had bankrupted itself countless times in the last century. Run up unsustainable debts, then effectively devalue the Drachma and declare itself bankrupt.

That poor old Greece.

The mistake the EU made was not by 'bullying' Greece into adopting modern, fiscal policies. It was by allowing Greece into the Euro and the ERM in the first place, before Greece got its house in order.

And even now, most Greeks want to remain in the EU.

 

 

You are an idiot.

Imagine someone chapped the door of a impoverished family with unemployed parents and said actualy you deserve to be hungry and cold this winter because of the policies of Blair, Brown, Cameron and May. That's how stupid your post is.

[Granny Danger]

5 minutes ago, Ross. said:

Blind hatred, yes, I agree, but with perfectly rational origins. The de-industrialisation of the UK was inevitable but the complete lack of preparation, and more importantly, support for those affected, was abhorrent and absolutely designed to ensure that the traditional Labour areas were the worst affect over the long term. Anyone who had left leanings was perfectly rational in hating Thatcher and by extension, the Conservatives.

That was deliberate.  If it was a managed process then the Trade Unions might still have had a role to play in the transformation process and what followed.  

The Tories wanted to emasculate the Trade Unions and they were largely successful.

 

[weegienative]

11 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

Yes and that migration from labour to UKIP is highly regionalised. We shouldn't forget that the north of England is where labour have traditionally parked a lot of their lifer MPs and this will have bred the same irritation there as it did in Scotland. I think this might be why people like Douglas Alexander have been so keen to link the SNP and UKIP as some sort of wider nationalist tide as opposed to two separate outlets for discontented voters with few options.

actually think the two are more similar than you think. Both full of incompetent fools well out of their depth. Both have xenophobic undertones (although anti Englishness seems to be socially acceptable in modern day Scotland).