Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[tirso]

17 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

I just can't see anyone getting any kind of a deal passed by Parliament.

With any luck it should all boil down to leaving with a No deal or revoking Article 50 and cancelling Brexit.

Hopefully faced with that choice common sense would prevail.

Absolutely.  This parliament has shown itself unable to pass any deal either due to the ERG wanting too much or Remainers not wanting any deal.   A new parliament is needed so that either a new referendum is given a mandate or a mandate to take a deal through parliament.

All the leverage has been used up.  It's May's deal either in the North sea or all UK.  

It's a terrible precedent to set negotiation subject to a second referendum.  But we are we are we are.

[harry94]

10 minutes ago, frankthetank22 said:

The "I just want this over with" sentiment is such a dangerous thing, imo this is what fascists and extremists want the general public to say so they can dissolve our rights and right whatever rules they want to benefit them and their friends, not the country.

You hear it a lot from some of the mentalist Tory backbenchers (well they are probably closer to the front bench now) who try to articulate a 'no deal' scenario as a way of ending uncertainty and getting on with it with a clean break.

It'd be interesting when they try to explain themselves after they return to seek a trade deal and then try to settle the same stuff that's in the withdrawal bill to satisfy the EU, US, Canada and other EU partners who have deals, alignment or are working on either. It's just disaster capitalism and politics all over, plenty of consultancy fees will be dished out whilst the country is carved up.

The sad thing is that it seems to be working and they have a route to success and getting away with it. I could see the human race as a whole destroying itself in the next hundred or so years.

[harry94]

6 minutes ago, tirso said:

 It's May's deal either in the North sea or all UK.  

I think May's deal in the North Sea probably had a much better chance at passing if it reached parliament but she obviously shat it very early with worrying about losing the DUP. It's polled very well in NI and there's no suggestion that voters there felt it went in the spirit of the GFA.

Regardless, it still seems that whoever is in government after the extension really has no option but to revisit it. I suspect that if Corbyn wins, he could maybe get it through with a Labour style political deceleration - there's only really a couple of mentalist leavers in his camp so I think a Labour PM probably has a much better chance than a Tory PM, even if it is someone like Corbyn.

[aDONisSheep]

It is indeed strange times.

1)  I'm begining to like Jess Phillips 

2)  I considered voting Tory!!  I've had lots of chances where I live (nine local and general elections), but before now I had never ever considered it.  Boris, Dominic &  the local party have saved me by expelling Dominic Grieve from the party!  So on a personal level, Boris Trump has saved my soul.

 

As for others discussing canning brexit and simply remaining.  I'm afraid that doesn't really help us.  We are now at a point whether we like it or not, that choosing no deal or remain leaves circa 50% of the population feeling completely dis-enfranchised.  Rory Stewart (an ex-tory.  NB note to self 'WHAT HAVE I BECOME?')  is right, we need to find a middle ground. 

Much though I have an awful lot of contempt for 'leavers', completely dis-regarding their viewpoint will not serve us well.

I'd love everyone to see the light and convert to remain, but I'm also realistic enought to know it's not going to happen.  I don't like the idea of people rushing to extremes both left and right, because it gets nothing done, or worse than that, the easy messages of self-interest and 'us against them' starts to dominate and the centre gets pushed more and more to the right (a la the Oo Ess of Eh!)

Where does this leave us?  I think all of us need to moderate ourselves and start to compromise.  

God forbid we may ultimately think May's deal was a good idea all along 

Yours

aDONis

Edited September 5, 2019 by aDONisSheep

[Jambomo]

25 minutes ago, tirso said:

maybe those fantasising over a false choice of no deal v remain could say why May's deal shouldn't be put to voters.

look forward to the no deal v union vote after Westminster and Holyrood frustrate talks with Scottish negotiators.

I wouldn't want May's deal not to be put to voters because democracy (ha ha ) means that they should have the choice.

My worry would be that many vote for it on the premise that its better than no deal and delivers a brexit to honour the vote. It is still a terrible deal that is only marginally better than no-deal because of the backstop. May's "Red lines" meant that getting a good deal was basically impossible because she was too concerned about the splits in her own party and the ERG/DUP. 

[aDONisSheep]

2 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

I wouldn't want May's deal not to be put to voters because democracy (ha ha ) means that they should have the choice.

My worry would be that many vote for it on the premise that its better than no deal and delivers a brexit to honour the vote. It is still a terrible deal that is only marginally better than no-deal because of the backstop. May's "Red lines" meant that getting a good deal was basically impossible because she was too concerned about the splits in her own party and the ERG/DUP. 

What he said.

[harry94]

17 minutes ago, aDONisSheep said:

Much though I have an awful lot of contempt for 'leavers', completely dis-regarding their viewpoint will not serve us well.

The problem is though that the press is whipping up a frenzy and describing anything short of bricking up the channel tunnel as a 'betrayal'.

I'm really unsure what common ground is. I reckon any sort of agreement will then see the likes of Farage retain their initial leave vote by seeking independence from whatever arrangement is agreed. It's blatant extremism being touted, I don't know how it can really be defeated and the cat is out of the bag.

[hearthammer]

For Boris the Fanny its all about elevating, (or as he sees it from imperial times), reinstating london as the epicentre of the modern universe.  He and the uberreich misfits within the tory hierarchy see this brexit shit as an opportunity for their britannia to rule the 1st world waves.  They'll create london as a tax haven for inward "investment" from the globally mega rich.  Look at the state of london now with much of the property estate being owned by wealthy russian and chinese nouveau-riche and (in my opinion) money laundering b*****ds.  The tories want their london to eclipse the offshore set up.

They don't give a flying for ordinary people and i'm surprised so many from not london in englandshire lap up this tory shit.  My feelings are that many follow blindly because they believe their politics give them a class status among their equally-wannabe posh arses.

 

Sooner we give running our own affairs a go, the better for me.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

50 minutes ago, tirso said:

maybe those fantasising over a false choice of no deal v remain could say why May's deal shouldn't be put to voters.

look forward to the no deal v union vote after Westminster and Holyrood frustrate talks with Scottish negotiators.

Screws with the Belfast Agreement. Even if intentions on all sides are honourable, the current border status (a la GFA) and EU requirements are incompatible. As I say, even if almost everybody is on the same page, there's always going to be a few who will grab the opportunity to break out the armalite or load up on fertiliser. That is not a risk I'd be happy with taking.

[tirso]

1 minute ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

Screws with the Belfast Agreement. Even if intentions on all sides are honourable, the current border status (a la GFA) and EU requirements are incompatible. As I say, even if almost everybody is on the same page, there's always going to be a few who will grab the opportunity to break out the armalite or load up on fertiliser. That is not a risk I'd be happy with taking.

May/EU deal was specifically designed so the backstop is no border in NI.  Was it not?

[aDONisSheep]

14 minutes ago, harry94 said:

The problem is though that the press is whipping up a frenzy and describing anything short of bricking up the channel tunnel as a 'betrayal'.

I'm really unsure what common ground is. I reckon any sort of agreement will then see the likes of Farage retain their initial leave vote by seeking independence from whatever arrangement is agreed. It's blatant extremism being touted, I don't know how it can really be defeated and the cat is out of the bag.

Re: the press.  I agree, but that is just another factor that needs negotiating.

Re: common ground.  That is up to politicions to define.  In my head, it is a cross party agreement, where essentially there can be broad enough agreement in the middle to 'shut-out' the extreme wings (of which I have been part of for a long time).

One of her many failings was that Theresa May didn't engage other parties.  Nobody from one party or another will be able to pass a deal  that they worked on in isolation.  They key is to share a bit of power and get it done.

Yours

aDONis

Edited September 5, 2019 by aDONisSheep

[Jambomo]

7 minutes ago, aDONisSheep said:

Re: the press.  I agree, but that is just another factor that needs negotiating.

 

With regards the press, I think that horse has bolted. The debate has moved now and I think a significant number of Leavers now think No Deal Brexit is the only kind that delivers what they want.  I think it actually has polarised to Leave v Remain now. 

[aDONisSheep]

11 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

With regards the press, I think that horse has bolted. The debate has moved now and I think a significant number of Leavers now think No Deal Brexit is the only kind that delivers what they want.  I think it actually has polarised to Leave v Remain now. 

Again I agree, but we can't do anything about history, we can only educated going forward.

The answer is a political one, not a public one. 

As an aside and in a rather cynical way, I think that leave vote is diminishing via natural causes and that new voters are more likely to vote remain, so we may well be moving to a more europhile position.  But again that doesn't really help us now.  

Yours

aDONis

[Paco]

2)  I considered voting Tory!!  I've had lots of chances where I live (nine local and general elections), but before now I had never ever considered it.  Boris, Dominic &  the local party have saved me by expelling Dominic Grieve from the party!  So on a personal level, Boris Trump has saved my soul.

I would love to know why you considered voting Tory, having never previously done so, between 2017 and Tuesday. What in that time frame made you think ‘might give these guys a whirl’?

Genuinely curious.

[beefybake]

1 hour ago, harry94 said:

You hear it a lot from some of the mentalist Tory backbenchers (well they are probably closer to the front bench now) who try to articulate a 'no deal' scenario as a way of ending uncertainty and getting on with it with a clean break.

It'd be interesting when they try to explain themselves after they return to seek a trade deal and then try to settle the same stuff that's in the withdrawal bill to satisfy the EU, US, Canada and other EU partners who have deals, alignment or are working on either. It's just disaster capitalism and politics all over, plenty of consultancy fees will be dished out whilst the country is carved up.

The sad thing is that it seems to be working and they have a route to success and getting away with it. I could see the human race as a whole destroying itself in the next hundred or so years.

The good thing is that they are showing everyone who they really are, the masks are off. 

[tirso]

53 minutes ago, aDONisSheep said:

Re: the press.  I agree, but that is just another factor that needs negotiating.

Re: common ground.  That is up to politicions to define.  In my head, it is a cross party agreement, where essentially there can be broad enough agreement in the middle to 'shut-out' the extreme wings (of which I have been part of for a long time).

One of her many failings was that Theresa May didn't engage other parties.  Nobody from one party or another will be able to pass a deal  that they worked on in isolation.  They key is to share a bit of power and get it done.

Yours

aDONis

Agree.  They all went into the last election promising to take forward the result.  It's an absolute disgrace Parliament haven't found the common ground to ensure unity when negotiating with a third party and get a deal through.  They've not bothered to compromise in any way and are all in it for themselves.  Whether it's idiots in the ERG or those that just don't accept leaving at all.  The EU have never been disjointed and know what they want.  If you believe the UK should honour the referendum result, they should have worked out a cross party strategy and stuck to it.  As Theresa May said, it's all very well voting her deal down but what leave do you collectively want.  

I don't agree with leaving but I accepted the rest of the United Kingdom gave a mandate to do so.  I have sympathy with the idea that referendums delegate  power to the people on specific questions and it's not up to Parliament to stop it by dithering or obstruction.   We need an election as soon as possible.

 

[scoobles]

And Jo Johnson has left the government to spend less time with his family

[Donathan]

I would love to know why you considered voting Tory, having never previously done so, between 2017 and Tuesday. What in that time frame made you think ‘might give these guys a whirl’?

Genuinely curious.

Maybe Dominic Grieve is his MP? That’s what I took from that post

[sparky88]

19 minutes ago, tirso said:

As Theresa May said, it's all very well voting her deal down but what leave do you collectively want.  

 

 

She should have worked this out before triggering Article 50.

[aDONisSheep]

23 minutes ago, Paco said:

 

I would love to know why you considered voting Tory, having never previously done so, between 2017 and Tuesday. What in that time frame made you think ‘might give these guys a whirl’?

Genuinely curious.

 

Hi Paco

The answer is both simple and a little contrived.

I live in the safest Tory seat in the country.  Dominic Grieve has a majority in excess of 24.5k so in the five general elections since I moved here, I've basically farted against thunder with my vote (but I have always voted).

Dominic and I do agree on one issue.  So..  If he was going to be elected no matter what, I was thinking about using my vote to 'support his position' and hopefully encourage other Tory MPs to follow his lead.

My decision was by no means set in stone, but I was seriously considering it...  However, now, as Professor Slughorn said to Tom Riddle 'This is all hypothetical, all academic'.

Yours

aDONis