Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Jambomo]

7 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

9 hours ago, Jambomo said:

I wouldn't want May's deal not to be put to voters because democracy (ha ha ) means that they should have the choice.
My worry would be that many vote for it on the premise that its better than no deal and delivers a brexit to honour the vote. It is still a terrible deal that is only marginally better than no-deal because of the backstop. May's "Red lines" meant that getting a good deal was basically impossible because she was too concerned about the splits in her own party and the ERG/DUP. 

The backstop is terrible for the Scottish economy. A neighbouring competitor in Northern Ireland with access to the single market. The SNP will never support it and rightly so.

I agree, the deal is awful for Scotland full stop. I only mean that the deal with the backstop might be seen as marginally better because it tries to help keep peace in Ireland. 

[welshbairn]

The EU would never allow the backstop to last for long if at all. It's a shite deal for them, customs union for the whole UK without freedom of movement or paying any contributions. It was probably May's only triumph in her negotiations ironically, her civil servants put it together. And the WA doesn't define any final settlement, it could be anything from Canada through Norway to back in the EU. 

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by welshbairn

[cyderspaceman]

18 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

9 hours ago, Jambomo said:

I wouldn't want May's deal not to be put to voters because democracy (ha ha ) means that they should have the choice.
My worry would be that many vote for it on the premise that its better than no deal and delivers a brexit to honour the vote. It is still a terrible deal that is only marginally better than no-deal because of the backstop. May's "Red lines" meant that getting a good deal was basically impossible because she was too concerned about the splits in her own party and the ERG/DUP. 

The backstop is terrible for the Scottish economy. A neighbouring competitor in Northern Ireland with access to the single market. The SNP will never support it and rightly so.

If it were to happen, perhaps Scotland would demand the same. Demand, ha ha.

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, AUFC90 said:

11 hours ago, Jambomo said:

I wouldn't want May's deal not to be put to voters because democracy (ha ha ) means that they should have the choice.
My worry would be that many vote for it on the premise that its better than no deal and delivers a brexit to honour the vote. It is still a terrible deal that is only marginally better than no-deal because of the backstop. May's "Red lines" meant that getting a good deal was basically impossible because she was too concerned about the splits in her own party and the ERG/DUP. 

The backstop is terrible for the Scottish economy. A neighbouring competitor in Northern Ireland with access to the single market. The SNP will never support it and rightly so.

Not that the UK, its parliament, courts, or acolytes will care (because it’s seen as a historical rather than a make-it-up-as-you-go-along constitutional document), but doesn’t the Treaty of Union (1707) specifically safeguard mercantile equality between Scots and the rest of the peoples of the union?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The "I just want this over with" sentiment is such a dangerous thing, imo this is what fascists and extremists want the general public to say so they can dissolve our rights and right whatever rules they want to benefit them and their friends, not the country.

It's as bad as Leave means Leave.

These c***s don't get that the Leave vote was not a blank cheque for Leave.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I think May's deal in the North Sea probably had a much better chance at passing if it reached parliament but she obviously shat it very early with worrying about losing the DUP. It's polled very well in NI and there's no suggestion that voters there felt it went in the spirit of the GFA.
Regardless, it still seems that whoever is in government after the extension really has no option but to revisit it. I suspect that if Corbyn wins, he could maybe get it through with a Labour style political deceleration - there's only really a couple of mentalist leavers in his camp so I think a Labour PM probably has a much better chance than a Tory PM, even if it is someone like Corbyn.

May could easily have got a deal that would have won a majority of MPs votes and a majority of the electorate.

Unfortunately that deal (a soft Brexit) would have destroyed her party.

The irony is that it didn't matter what she did the Tories were always going to implode.

[Dunning1874]

As prorogation means any bills which haven’t passed yet get scrapped, this means the Fisheries Bill will have to be started all over again and there is of course no chance a bill could be passed in time in the event we did leave with no deal on 31 October. Which would mean the fishing industry would be absolutely fucked from 1 November.

I don’t suppose Johnson is going to pass through Banff and Buchan on his visit today?

[welshbairn]

26 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

As prorogation means any bills which haven’t passed yet get scrapped, this means the Fisheries Bill will have to be started all over again and there is of course no chance a bill could be passed in time in the event we did leave with no deal on 31 October. Which would mean the fishing industry would be absolutely fucked from 1 November.

I don’t suppose Johnson is going to pass through Banff and Buchan on his visit today?

He's in Peterhead at the moment.

[NotThePars]

Tempting fate for a Tory PM to come to Scotland after publicly saying he’d rather be dead in a ditch than do something

[Crùbag]

Breaking: English border in Ireland problems have been resolved.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Crùbag

[tirso]

13 hours ago, AUFC90 said:

23 hours ago, Jambomo said:

I wouldn't want May's deal not to be put to voters because democracy (ha ha ) means that they should have the choice.
My worry would be that many vote for it on the premise that its better than no deal and delivers a brexit to honour the vote. It is still a terrible deal that is only marginally better than no-deal because of the backstop. May's "Red lines" meant that getting a good deal was basically impossible because she was too concerned about the splits in her own party and the ERG/DUP. 

The backstop is terrible for the Scottish economy. A neighbouring competitor in Northern Ireland with access to the single market. The SNP will never support it and rightly so.

agreed.  What about if we're independent in the EU?  how does the backstop work there?

[WhiteRoseKillie]

41 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

I see Mogg got made to say sorry to the doctor he defamed

Well, he's issued a press release. No sign of an apology actually to the Doctor, who's just been on LBC, or an admission that the Government is prepared for some level of mortality to occur due to its policies. Allowing this to be the end of the matter lets the cúnt off the hook, imho - abuse of PP is one thing, when it is carried out by the Leader of the House and allowed to be swept aside so easily, it becomes a major concern.

[Granny Danger]

The only way to resolve this and to give people the certainty we are told they crave is through another referendum.  A GE could very well end in another hung Parliament and we would be no further forward.

I think only the most obtuse Remainers would refuse to accept a No Deal outcome if that’s what was decided.  FWIW I’m pretty certain it would be Remain.

The SNP, Plaid and Lib Dem’s would support this as would many on the Labour benches and even quite a few Tories.

If Labour officially got behind this their support would shoot up at the expense of the Lib Dems.  Pass legislation before agreeing to a GE then fight the GE on this proposal.

I think Labour would still get humped in Scotland but that’s just an added bonus.

 

[WhiteRoseKillie]

29 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

The only way to resolve this and to give people the certainty we are told they crave is through another referendum.  A GE could very well end in another hung Parliament and we would be no further forward.

I think only the most obtuse Remainers would refuse to accept a No Deal outcome if that’s what was decided.  FWIW I’m pretty certain it would be Remain.

The SNP, Plaid and Lib Dem’s would support this as would many on the Labour benches and even quite a few Tories.

If Labour officially got behind this their support would shoot up at the expense of the Lib Dems.  Pass legislation before agreeing to a GE then fight the GE on this proposal.

I think Labour would still get humped in Scotland but that’s just an added bonus.

 

In all honesty, GD, my priorities are :

1. Stop No Deal.

2. Get rid of the Tories.

3. Negotiate a proposal for a future relationship with the EU, and reach a binding agreement.

4. Put this agreement to the electorate, with Remain as the alternative.

3 and 4, of course, are what we should have done in the fucking first place, rather than a ridiculous binary choice where one side has been manipulated to mean all things to all men. Although it's not long since over 20% of leave voters were polled as believing the=at "no deal" meant returning to the status quo ante.

[Granny Danger]

5 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

In all honesty, GD, my priorities are :

1. Stop No Deal.

2. Get rid of the Tories.

3. Negotiate a proposal for a future relationship with the EU, and reach a binding agreement.

4. Put this agreement to the electorate, with Remain as the alternative.

3 and 4, of course, are what we should have done in the fucking first place, rather than a ridiculous binary choice where one side has been manipulated to mean all things to all men. Although it's not long since over 20% of leave voters were polled as believing the=at "no deal" meant returning to the status quo ante.

1. Without a further referendum we can delay No Deal but not guarantee to stop it.

2. We cannot guarantee that here will not be a Tory, Tory/DUP, or Tory/DUP/Brexit Party after the next GE.  I think the odds favour that outcome.

3.  Whilst there is no guarantee that a further referendum will result in a Remain vote I’m pretty confident it would.

That’s why a referendum is the best option.

 

[WhiteRoseKillie]

13 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

1. Without a further referendum we can delay No Deal but not guarantee to stop it.

2. We cannot guarantee that here will not be a Tory, Tory/DUP, or Tory/DUP/Brexit Party after the next GE.  I think the odds favour that outcome.

3.  Whilst there is no guarantee that a further referendum will result in a Remain vote I’m pretty confident it would.

That’s why a referendum is the best option.

 

I think you and I are looking for the same outcome (or the same ballpark, anyway), just different routes for getting there. What I thinkwe can agree on is, despite best efforts to be pessimistic at the moment, things are looking a fair bit brighter than they have.

I for one have been absolutely astounded at the speed with which Johnson's tenure is unravelling. It's fucking glorious and, while I want a resolution to this clusterfuck sharpish, there's a part of me wants to watch these cúnts twist in the wind for a long, long time to come.

[Hedgecutter]

27 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

In all honesty, GD, my priorities are :

1. Stop No Deal.

2. Get rid of the Tories.

3. Negotiate a proposal for a future relationship with the EU, and reach a binding agreement.

4. Put this agreement to the electorate, with Remain as the alternative.

Good luck with that. 

My main fear is that Remain Tory voters will still vote Tory rather than see Corbyn get in, letting the Tories think they have a mandate to see Brexit through which will undoubtedly be a key part of their manifesto.  

[Granny Danger]

1 minute ago, Hedgecutter said:

Good luck with that. 

My main fear is that Remain Tory voters will still vote Tory rather than see Corbyn get in, letting the Tories think they have a mandate to see Brexit through which will undoubtedly be a key part of their manifesto.  

Yeah, the best we can hope for is a lot of Tories just not going out to vote.  I’m sure the possibility of that will be addressed in Johnson’s campaign.  “An abstention is a vote for a Marxist Corbyn Government”.

 

[WhiteRoseKillie]

1 minute ago, Hedgecutter said:

Good luck with that. 

My main fear is that Remain Tory voters will still vote Tory rather than see Corbyn get in, letting the Tories think they have a mandate to see Brexit through which will undoubtedly be a key part of their manifesto.  

I'll be honest - I think they're in serious trouble. I don't think the media down here have cottoned on, and the Tories themselves certainly haven't.

The fact is that by legitimising racist and separatist ideas and behaviour not seen since the seventies, they've happily moved that overton window to a place where their manifesto at the 2017 election bore more than a passing resemblance to that of the BNP in 2005. Yet very few commentators will call them out as extremists. Well, guess what? They have managed to gain the support of the UJ-wearing, pitbull-owning Wetherspoon drinkers*  - but they're now losing it to Fromage's new mob, as xenophobia and racism become acceptable again.

Meanwhile, those who may have been attracted to the Tories from what used to be the centre ground wouldn't touch them with a bargepole - they've repeated the labour Party's disastrous contempt for the Scottish electorate on a bigger stage.

*Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.

 

[WhiteRoseKillie]

5 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Yeah, the best we can hope for is a lot of Tories just not going out to vote.  I’m sure the possibility of that will be addressed in Johnson’s campaign.  “An abstention is a vote for a Marxist Corbyn Government”.

 

I think we can hope for better than that. Yes, some will just not vote, probably because of distaste at what their party has become. Some will also move to the Brexit party - the right wing will split, and Frogface won't co-operate with them becaue firstly they won't deliver no-deal and secondly, they will never, ever, make Nigel king.