Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Salvo Montalbano]

If Parliament is offered a straight choice between No Deal and Revoke they will vote to revoke.
It would be by a very small margin.

You've said that a few times but I genuinely can't see it. The number of Labour MPs in particular talking about "respecting the will of the people" and "not wanting to be seen as a Remain party" and more importantly the threat to the Tories of the Brexit Party will see almost every Tory, and more than enough Labour (possibly even DUP if a big enough bribe comes in) voting for a No Deal.

[Antlion]

3 hours ago, Cerberus said:

 

There’s not many other options left.
If the EU won’t renegotiate then he’s left with getting May’s deal through parliament, No Deal or Remain.

Or another extension I guess.

 

I’d love to know why Johnson and his scumbag pals (along with the compliant media) think the EU would or should renegotiate. The UK Government and the EU undertook and concluded negotiations. Johnson and c**t now speak as though none of that ever happened, and that piece of shit May finally getting flushed somehow resets everything and restarts negotiations from scratch. It doesn’t. The EU shouldn’t give a red f**k about the internal squabbles of the Tory party. From a European perspective, the withdrawal agreement was agreed by the English government in good faith. The fact that that government is getting a new face doesn’t and shouldn’t alter that. I mean, can you imagine the gammony squeals if the UK had secured a deal, and as soon as von der Leyen was elected she simply said, “nah, f**k that - I don’t like it and I have a new mandate so you have to start over”.

[Granny Danger]

23 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

 

 

You've said that a few times but I genuinely can't see it. The number of Labour MPs in particular talking about "respecting the will of the people" and "not wanting to be seen as a Remain party" and more importantly the threat to the Tories of the Brexit Party will see almost every Tory, and more than enough Labour (possibly even DUP if a big enough bribe comes in) voting for a No Deal.

 

MPs who vote for No Deal will not be able to escape the consequences.  A few MPs who are leaving Parliament won’t bother, but they’re in the minority.

Despite what the pro-Brexit zealots claim, the doomsday scenario is not the domain of a few ‘Remoaners’.

Enough will look at the sort of forecasts the OBR released today and not be willing to take the chance.

[Kuro]

13 hours ago, strichener said:

Yet it has taken remain leaning parliamentarians to get us to this point.

No it hasn't, they have been played all along.  No deal is better than a bad deal (its not, any deal is better than no deal), setting deliberately unachievable red lines etc.  This has been the plan all along.

[strichener]

9 hours ago, Kuro said:

No it hasn't, they have been played all along.  No deal is better than a bad deal (its not, any deal is better than no deal), setting deliberately unachievable red lines etc.  This has been the plan all along.

Played or not, it has taken the votes of remain politicians to get us to this point. 

It's interesting that you are now stating that MPs didn't know what they were voting for, looks like the leavers know what they are doing and the remainers are lacking the intelligence to see through this.  Goes against the narrative but interesting interpretation all the same.

Which politician were you caddying for when they let this slip? 

Edited July 19, 2019 by strichener

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Played or not, it has taken the votes of remain politicians to get us to this point.  It's interesting that you are now stating that MPs didn't know what they were voting for, looks like the leavers know what they are doing and the remainers are lacking the intelligence to see through this.  Goes against the narrative but interesting interpretation all the same.

Which politician were you caddying for when they let this slip? 

 

Not considering any kind of soft Brexit and pandering to the ERG has got us here. 

 

 

May (and Cameron) have to shoulder the blame.

 

There could easily have been a Brexit that a majority of Leave and Remain MPs (and voters) could have backed - instead we had the ridiculous assertion from the off that membership of the SM and/or CU was immediately ruled out - despite Leave campaigners saying that we'd still be part of the SM even if we voted Leave.

 

MPs have tried to put forward the soft Brexit option but have been consistently stymied but a pigheaded PM and her whips.

 

If you are going to blame anyone else then Corbyn needs to shoulder some of the blame - his fence-sitting pish hasn't helped at all.

 

The truth is that the reason we are here is not because of Remain MPs but of the antiquated adversarial political system that is Westminster - a system that gives too much power to the executive and encourages tribal politics

 

 

 

[Granny Danger]

At the start of this process no one envisaged a No Deal.  At the start of this process both Mogg and Farage made favourable reference to a confirmatory public vote.

What has happened is that in the process zealots, spurned on by Trump’s ‘success’, have seen an opportunity to weaponise the Brexit process and use narrow nationalism to pursue a different and more dangerous/isolationist agenda.

The worry is that so many ‘mainstrwam’ Conservatives have bought into this vision.

[strichener]

14 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Not considering any kind of soft Brexit and pandering to the ERG has got us here. 

 

 

May (and Cameron) have to shoulder the blame.

 

There could easily have been a Brexit that a majority of Leave and Remain MPs (and voters) could have backed - instead we had the ridiculous assertion from the off that membership of the SM and/or CU was immediately ruled out - despite Leave campaigners saying that we'd still be part of the SM even if we voted Leave.

 

MPs have tried to put forward the soft Brexit option but have been consistently stymied but a pigheaded PM and her whips.

 

If you are going to blame anyone else then Corbyn needs to shoulder some of the blame - his fence-sitting pish hasn't helped at all.

 

The truth is that the reason we are here is not because of Remain MPs but of the antiquated adversarial political system that is Westminster - a system that gives too much power to the executive and encourages tribal politics

 

 

 

No option other than to invoke article 50 has had a majority.  ALL options put before parliament have failed to command a majority so you are either ignorant to what has actually been voted on or are in some sort of alternative reality.

[NotThePars]

Idk if this is viewable without a subscription (I can post a screenshot) but this guy in the LRB letters page has insisted there is an alternative legal argument that claims a No Deal Brexit isn't the default option.

 

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v41/n14/letters

[LongTimeLurker]

Viewable for me. Let's hope the Three Knights Opinion proves to be correct and a hard no deal brexit really does require parliamentary approval and defaults to remain in its absence.

[zidane's child]

The Panorama documentary on the BBC last night just really highlights how inept the UK government were in EU negotiations. The EU never had to really get out of third gear at any point.

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, zidane's child said:

The Panorama documentary on the BBC last night just really highlights how inept the UK government were in EU negotiations. The EU never had to really get out of third gear at any point.

Just finished watching it.  A decent expose of our negotiator’s failings and the stupidity and pettiness of politicians and officials.

The cringey 10 second clip of Love Island was a metaphor for the Gammons’ total lack of understanding.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

8 hours ago, strichener said:

No option other than to invoke article 50 has had a majority.  ALL options put before parliament have failed to command a majority so you are either ignorant to what has actually been voted on or are in some sort of alternative reality.

The reason there hasn't been a majority is because the votes have been far from free - there's been a lot of arm-twisting going on in the background, particularly on the Tory benches.

It's all and fine saying tnhat Article 50 has been invoked - at what point has No Deal actually been voted on?  Invoking article 50 put into motion the principle that Leave should happen but not HOW it should happen. 

There hasn't been a majority for ANY of the options on offer, including No Deal.

Some MPs haven't supported any of the options, not because they don't favour one, but because of some antiquated shite that it "undermines the executive" - well I'm sorry but that is bullshit of the first degree - Governments in the UK have far too much power to control the timetable - the reality is that the agenda is determined not by MPs but a very small number of individuals within the Tory Government.

And don't start me with the Labour Party - too busy sitting on the fence getting splinters in their arses - too frightened to make a decision in case they upset the racists in their Northern constituncies.

I genuinely don't know where we are heading with this - but, given that Johnson looks a cert to win then I don't think it augurs well for a deal that isn't shit or No Deal.  Either of those results will be the death warrant for the UK.

Edited July 19, 2019 by DeeTillEhDeh

[ayrmad]

39 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

The reason there hasn't been a majority is because the votes have been far from free - there's been a lot of arm-twisting going on in the background, particularly on the Tory benches.

It's all and fine saying tnhat Article 50 has been invoked - at what point has No Deal actually been voted on?  Invoking article 50 put into motion the principle that Leave should happen but not HOW it should happen. 

There hasn't been a majority for ANY of the options on offer, including No Deal.

Some MPs haven't supported any of the options, not because they don't favour one, but because of some antiquated shite that it "undermines the executive" - well I'm sorry but that is bullshit of the first degree - Governments in the UK have far too much power to control the timetable - the reality is that the agenda is determined not by MPs but a very small number of individuals within the Tory Government.

And don't start me with the Labour Party - too busy sitting on the fence getting splinters in their arses - too frightened to make a decision in case they upset the racists in their Northern constituncies.

I genuinely don't know where we are heading with this - but, given that Johnson looks a cert to win then I don't think it augurs well for a deal that isn't shit or No Deal.  Either of those results will be the death warrant for the UK.

I've felt that was the only course of action since the start, not read or heard anything in the intervening years that changes my mind.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

No Deal is just a horrendous option - it's based on this notion that the UK is still a world power and that everyone wil be falling over themselves to get a trade deal with us. 

Simple economies of scale will tell you that the UK will never get a better deal than the EU - no matter what Boris and his chums tell you.

Those who support No Deal knowing full well what that means are doing so because it benefits them financially - you have to ask why JRM et al haved moved their assets out of the UK if they are so confident that No Deal is such a good thing for tghe UK economy.

The whole direction of Brexit is being driven by a small clique of self-interested wankers - the only reason Boris supports it is because it help him become PM - it's not about what is good for the UK but what is good for Boris.

[ayrmad]

7 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

No Deal is just a horrendous option - it's based on this notion that the UK is still a world power and that everyone wil be falling over themselves to get a trade deal with us. 

Simple economies of scale will tell you that the UK will never get a better deal than the EU - no matter what Boris and his chums tell you.

Those who support No Deal knowing full well what that means are doing so because it benefits them financially - you have to ask why JRM et al haved moved their assets out of the UK if they are so confident that No Deal is such a good thing for tghe UK economy.

The whole direction of Brexit is being driven by a small clique of self-interested wankers - the only reason Boris supports it is because it help him become PM - it's not about what is good for the UK but what is good for Boris.

Never said it was great but it is what I've felt all along, May was just the patsy put in place to take the fall IMO.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

4 minutes ago, ayrmad said:

Never said it was great but it is what I've felt all along, May was just the patsy put in place to take the fall IMO.

So  by the only course of action you mean what you think will happen not what should happen.

[ayrmad]

5 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

So  by the only course of action you mean what you think will happen not what should happen.

Yes, I've not looked at it enough to know what Brexit should look like.

[strichener]

1 hour ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

The reason there hasn't been a majority is because the votes have been far from free - there's been a lot of arm-twisting going on in the background, particularly on the Tory benches.

It's all and fine saying tnhat Article 50 has been invoked - at what point has No Deal actually been voted on?  Invoking article 50 put into motion the principle that Leave should happen but not HOW it should happen. 

There hasn't been a majority for ANY of the options on offer, including No Deal.

Some MPs haven't supported any of the options, not because they don't favour one, but because of some antiquated shite that it "undermines the executive" - well I'm sorry but that is bullshit of the first degree - Governments in the UK have far too much power to control the timetable - the reality is that the agenda is determined not by MPs but a very small number of individuals within the Tory Government.

And don't start me with the Labour Party - too busy sitting on the fence getting splinters in their arses - too frightened to make a decision in case they upset the racists in their Northern constituncies.

I genuinely don't know where we are heading with this - but, given that Johnson looks a cert to win then I don't think it augurs well for a deal that isn't shit or No Deal.  Either of those results will be the death warrant for the UK.

Absolute and utter rubbish.  A no deal brexit is not desirable but unless the EU are willing to alter the existing agreement then there is no alternative that delivers on the referendum, taking into account the previous parliamentary votes.

The European (Notice of Withdrawal) Act 2017 is the enabler for no deal.  Everyone, especially politicians new the revocation was automatic at the end of 6 months.  No deal was necessary for the UK to leave the EU and this remains the case.

The parliamentary process is the only thing that has stopped a deal from happening so I am not sure that you can blame the executive for the lack of support of parliament.  There may be genuine concerns over the deal on the table but I have no idea what the alternatives were nor what Labour think they can achieve by voting against the current deal with no coherent, deliverable plan of their own.  The EU have decided that negotiations are finished and therefore if Parliament cannot accept the current deal then they are, by default, showing preference to a no deal.

The idea that leaving the EU would be the death of the UK is just hyperbole and not even worth debating.  Meanwhile the consensus on here was that all the idiots were on the leave side. 

Edited July 19, 2019 by strichener

[welshbairn]

Maybe not every leaver was an idiot, but every idiot voted leave. As did every racist. Fact. Some intelligent people voted leave because they see it as a way of making money by short term speculation, or by reopening the opium trade to China. Anyway the EU will concede a meaningless rewording of the backstop that PM Boris will claim as a bigger victory than El Alamein and May's deal will go through.