Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Fullerene]

32 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Don't know enough about state aid rules to know if Corbyn is as daft about it as this guy makes out.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/27/four-reasons-jeremy-corbyn-wrong-eu-state-aid

Jeremy Corbyn loves giving speeches where he says "I have always believed."
It demonstrates conviction.

Jeremy Corbyn does not like giving speeches where he says "I now believe."
It suggests he is fickle.

He made up his mind on the EU a long time ago and he will not budge.

If he was persuaded otherwise on state aid, he would simply grab some other excuse.

He is totally out of step with his own membership even though they were the ones that got him where he is now.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

1) The UK isn't a democracy. Currently, only 650 of the UK parliament are elected. A further 793 are unelected, and all acts are officially brought into law by another unelected "sovereign"
2) The UK is part of Europe. It can't vote to leave a geographic entity. The referendum was about staying in or leaving the EU.
3) At the very least, there is a philosophical argument that there is no God, and the various belief systems all appear to have contradictions when you compare them. Which God are you asking us to thank?
Apart from these three major flaws, I think you have the basis of a great post there. Why not work on it?

That's a telt and a half!!

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Any noise about the failing with FPTP or the travel between a white/green paper to royal assent is completely irrelevant to the fact that brexit was a democratic decision by the UK electorate.   
It would have been equally poor if Yes Scotland suggested they'd won the 2014 vote, and thankfully they didn't.   

Parliamentary process is sacrosanct and the UK must Brexit and idiots suggesting we didn't know what we voted for must be muted.  

Two words.

Advisory referendum.

[beefybake]

14 hours ago, stuckinthecarpark said:

a democracy voted to leave europe so we are  leaving thank god

And a democracy can change its mind. 

[beefybake]

 

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by beefybake

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Billy Rubin said:

I believe the UK has to exit, afterwards we can - if we wish - vote for parties like the Lib Dems - that wish to rejoin the EU.    It's a democratic fail if the result isn't respected.  
 

We're sheltered in Scotland towards the brexit hate from sections of England.   Non-allowance of brexit to happen may well lead to martial control.  

With all due respect, the people who would riot etc are a minority of nutters who would undoubtedly be rioting for any reason that they could find and quite frankly I'd doubt if most of them had any understanding or care about the EU, or indeed whether or not we remained members.

Of course the mainstream media such as the Mail, Express, Sun & Star will obviously have a part to play and should be taken to task by the authorities if found to be inciting violence and racial hatred.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

Strangely you haven't cited immigration as a possible reason for voting Leave.

As I'm now living in an area in which a substantial majority voted to leave, I'm painfully aware that immigration was the most important consideration for many in these parts. There's a kind of an undercurrent, or even a deep seated belief that EU immigrants, or in fact any immigrants, get everything from help with housing, to health and/or unemployment benefits handed to them on a plate. These beliefs seem to have their roots in pubs, clubs, workplaces and football matches, where racism is particularly rife.  Sadly I don't think many  around here are influenced by any of the many discussion/debate programmes currently raging throughout the media.

The tabloid press surely have to take the majority of the blame ??

[Detournement]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Don't know enough about state aid rules to know if Corbyn is as clueless about it as this guy makes out.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/27/four-reasons-jeremy-corbyn-wrong-eu-state-aid

His first point is that State Aid rules don't actually stop governments from implementing industrial policy citing Sweden and German. Which ignores the fact that Labour rightly doesn't want to copy contemporary Germany and especially Sweden where inequality is rising extremely quickly. It also ignores that State Aid rules are only one plank of this and competition rules and the Stability and Growth fiscal rules also restrict Labour policies.

The second point is completely irrelevant regarding the USA and ignores that private firms like Serco, Carrillion etc are already creaming taxpayers.

Third point is world trade organisation rules will get us anyway. People say this as if China doesn't exist.

Fourth point is that because the Tories in Westminster and the Tories in Brussels agreed on putting State Aid rules in the current Withdrawal Agreement then any withdrawal agreement must include that. That's obviously not true and the fact that the EU is happy to tie the hands of a future Labour government is hardly a feather in their cap.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Detournement

[zidane's child]

2 hours ago, Fullerene said:

 

He is totally out of step with his own membership even though they were the ones that got him where he is now.

Agree - he is in danger of sh**ing in his own nest.

[Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier]

Just now, zidane's child said:

Agree - he is in danger of sh**ing in his own nest.

Hopefully he shits himself out of the leadership.

[Detournement]

This is a totally media driven controversy. The same thing happened in the summer. As soon as Parliament split up the media went on full Corbyn attack.

Look at Twitter. No genuine Labour supporters are switching over this. The 'outrage' doesn't exist compared to what happened with the Chicken Coup or the support for Corbyn over fake smears. There is a small but extremely vocal group who are strongly pro EU or just want to use it to beat Corbyn out of the leadership. Corbyn and McDonnell are the only reason that Labour hasn't joined it's European sister parties in the low to mid 20s in the polls.

[Detournement]

FBPE is full of shit.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Billy Rubin said:

Any noise about the failing with FPTP or the travel between a white/green paper to royal assent is completely irrelevant to the fact that brexit was a democratic decision by the UK electorate.   
It would have been equally poor if Yes Scotland suggested they'd won the 2014 vote, and thankfully they didn't.   

Parliamentary process is sacrosanct and the UK must Brexit and idiots suggesting we didn't know what we voted for must be muted.  

Brown shirts ??

[ICTJohnboy]

1 hour ago, WATTOO said:

The tabloid press surely have to take the majority of the blame ??

 

You might have a point there. It is interesting to note that the country's most popular newspaper - the Sun, which is a depressing thought - took totally opposing views between their English and Scottish editions on the eve of the referendum.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

You might have a point there. It is interesting to note that the country's most popular newspaper - the Sun, which is a depressing thought - took totally opposing views between their English and Scottish editions on the eve of the referendum.

Yes, the Mail did similar where they were playing people off against each other and basically spreading lies. Quentin letts being a prime example where he was penning stories about "English people being attacked in the streets" and "Glasgow a no go zone for the English" etc,etc, I just wonder how many Scots were "done in" down South as a result of the lies he was writing ??

Sadly, certain members of our so called "press" seem to be able to commit "hate crimes" on a daily basis without fear of repercussion..................

[Granny Danger]

56 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier said:

Hopefully he shits himself out of the leadership.

There is a real possibility of that; there is a real possibility by the time he’s dumped he will have screwed things up and I can see his supporters being infuriated by his betrayal.

 

[Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier]

Just now, Granny Danger said:

There is a real possibility of that; there is a real possibility by the time he’s dumped he will have screwed things up and I can see his supporters being infuriated by his betrayal.

 

Every cloud has a silver lining.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

This is a totally media driven controversy. The same thing happened in the summer. As soon as Parliament split up the media went on full Corbyn attack.
Look at Twitter. No genuine Labour supporters are switching over this. The 'outrage' doesn't exist compared to what happened with the Chicken Coup or the support for Corbyn over fake smears. There is a small but extremely vocal group who are strongly pro EU or just want to use it to beat Corbyn out of the leadership. Corbyn and McDonnell are the only reason that Labour hasn't joined it's European sister parties in the low to mid 20s in the polls.

On Brexit he's only got himself to blame - at least come out and say where he stands instead getting splinters on his arse sitting on the fence.

Many forget how fucking lacking in leadership he was during the EU referendum - something I'll never forgive the duplicitous b*****d for.

[Detournement]

12 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

On Brexit he's only got himself to blame - at least come out and say where he stands instead getting splinters on his arse sitting on the fence.

Many forget how fucking lacking in leadership he was during the EU referendum - something I'll never forgive the duplicitous b*****d for.

 During the campaing he was clear he was a luke warm remainer. Since then he has been clear in the manifesto, at the conference and last week in his interview where stated Brexit would still go ahead under a Labour government which caused the current middle class media tantrum.

What would you have had him do during the campaign? The Remain campaign was run by Jack Straw's son who purposefully excluded him in a precursor to the pre planned leadership challenge (which was happening regardless of the result).

[Fullerene]

9 minutes ago, Detournement said:

 During the campaing he was clear he was a luke warm remainer. Since then he has been clear in the manifesto, at the conference and last week in his interview where stated Brexit would still go ahead under a Labour government which caused the current middle class media tantrum.

What would you have had him do during the campaign? The Remain campaign was run by Jack Straw's son who purposefully excluded him in a precursor to the pre planned leadership challenge (which was happening regardless of the result).

I have strong opinions on some things but I also have no opinion on other things.

For the latter, I rely on politicians to do the hard work and then convince me one way or the other.
In other words, he should have made up his mind and come out fighting - just like he did for the 2017 election.

Also, some of your recent replies suggest paranoia and conspiracy similar to North Korea and Enver Hoxha's Albania.
Jeremy Corbyn is supposedly one of two people who could be Prime Minister at the next election and yet he was easily outmanuevred by Jack Straw's son.
Good luck as PM combatting Trump, Putin, Xi Jinping, Kim Jung-un - and the EU as well.

IIRC: He blocked efforts by Alan Johnson to push a more pro-EU campaign during the referendum.