Ad Lib Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 6 hours ago, strichener said: Changed your tune, I thought politicians lying was to be expected. Expecting politicians to lie is not the same as condoning it. I've been very clear about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 2 minutes ago, Peppino Impastato said: Who said he did moron, i said he offered an alternative real or imagined and people grabbed it. I also said a similar movement of actual substance could have similar success, you said such positive change is impossible and the poor in the west should accept their lot and Suck it up. You're a lying, trolling, utter scumbag. Believing in fairy-tales is evidence of infantilism or delusion. If you base your political decisions on things like that then you shouldn't be enfranchised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Describing any possibility of positive change in the lives of working class people as a fairytale sums you up.life is too short to engage a fat speccy trolling virgin, on ignore chump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 22 minutes ago, Ad Lib said: And if you define a dog as a cat and a bark as a moo then a cat moos. This is not the worldview of the vast majority of people. Hillary Clinton does not even remotely ascribe to the worldview you have described. That is where this argument breaks down. The vast majority of people you are tarring as neoliberal, who accept almost none of your definition of neoliberalism as what the world should be like, also celebrate the internet, Wikipedia and 3D printing. They are successes of globalisation and free markets; not failures. The people who are voting against all this change are luddite morons who resent the fact that under any economic system they are not as good as a robot, and who want to uninvent Chinese manufacturing. The bottom line is that the current economic system has utterly transformed the lives of billions of people at the bottom. Paddyfields to iPhones. That's literally what's at stake here. White working class people resent the fact that they can't piggy-back off other people's systematic oppression anymore because globalisation has freed them. Again, the people voting for Trump and Brexit are climate change deniers. They aren't fed-up of consumption; they're fed-up of other people getting to consume as much as them for once. The state is physically incapable of fixing these problems. That's what gave rise to neoliberalism in the first place. The state was trying and failing to contain global market forces, and its efforts to do it were actively damaging the most disadvantaged. It was alienating them from new skills by propping up failed labour-intensive industries. It was allowing them to pretend that their model of community was fine and sustainable when it wasn't, isn't and has to die. That is the brutal reality. I didn't say they weren't (although given the internet as we know it is the combination of years of publically funded research at the US DoD, combined with a protocol developed at a public instititon, CERN and gifted to the world for no profit, then I'm not entirely sure it's a victory for the right, but anyway), that doesn't mean that they won't fundamentally alter or even end that particular mode of economics, which is my point. Like climate change it's not about who voted for what, or who want's to prop up what system - I'm talking about an end to neoliberalism not through the deliberate actions of a competing politics and philosophy but the more fundamental modes of technology and physics that neoliberalism itself brings about. How we create and consume products,and energy is being altered by the proliferation of the information economy, it will represent a fundamental break with neoliberalist capitalism, Climate change will also fundamentally alter the role of the state, bringing in more interventionist philosophy to negate the fairly brutal effects global warming is going to bring, while renewables will massively warp the energy market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honestly united Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 To start with the original point of the first post about how the right and in particular how the racist right have gained a foothold as the popular anti-establishment vote. For Trump in the US, you have Farage and UKIP in the UK. Granted they haven't been quite as successful, but a party that is what, about 10 years old they have gone from zero to probably the 3 or 4th biggest party in the UK. I remember once UKIP being called the BNP but with M&S Suits and in a way I think looking respectable (or not working class) has helped to legitimise their policies and gain them a support. If you have someone from the BNP, they invariably look (note generic stereotyping) like some tattooed thug, however, the racist element aside, their policies are very left wing and SHOULD be far more relevant to the working class than UKIP. Yet one councillor aside they have very little support. The issue with Labour in the UK is they currently don’t know what they are. Corbyn is trying to shift them to the left, and has some decent policies, yet is not media savvy enough to be a modern leader. If you look at Trumps campaign, its all soundbites and no substance, and in today’s world that is what gets noticed, everything has to be short and snappy and no one takes any notice. Also you see him on TV and it looks like he doesn’t want to be there, only last week some reporter asked him a question, it was rabbit in the headlights stuff, he ran off and his aid had to respond he wasn’t answering questions. Someone like Trump wouldn’t have answered the question, but would have taken the time in the lime light for a bit of, waffled about some other self-promotion. The media is what makes or breaks politicians, you just have to look at the Lib Dems as part of the coalition, I thought they had done an excellent job, and all of the decent policies from the last government seemed to come from them, not the Tories, and the Tories seem to be suffering now without them there to steady the ship. However there seemed to be some sort of media backlash against them that cost them many seats at the last election. Thankfully in the UK it would be hard work for someone to get into a position like Trumps as you need to be an MP before becoming party leader, the closest I think you could get is Mayor. I wonder if you could get someone like Russell Brand to give it a go as London Mayor, anti-establishment, very leftie, could be interesting, could be a disaster, but it would be London so they probably deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 I presume you are single ad lib?What a negative attitude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Why do we even have elections when we don't know what any potential government might actually do? The little people should just leave it to the powers that be. They know nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 1 hour ago, renton said: I didn't say they weren't (although given the internet as we know it is the combination of years of publically funded research at the US DoD, combined with a protocol developed at a public instititon, CERN and gifted to the world for no profit, then I'm not entirely sure it's a victory for the right, but anyway), that doesn't mean that they won't fundamentally alter or even end that particular mode of economics, which is my point. Like climate change it's not about who voted for what, or who want's to prop up what system - I'm talking about an end to neoliberalism not through the deliberate actions of a competing politics and philosophy but the more fundamental modes of technology and physics that neoliberalism itself brings about. How we create and consume products,and energy is being altered by the proliferation of the information economy, it will represent a fundamental break with neoliberalist capitalism, Climate change will also fundamentally alter the role of the state, bringing in more interventionist philosophy to negate the fairly brutal effects global warming is going to bring, while renewables will massively warp the energy market. Neoliberals aren't against lots of investment into public research. They aren't against mutual or cooperative models of information sharing. Especially in the latter case they champion it. That's their utopia. You're not actually explaining how these things will cause a "break" with "neoliberal capitalism". They are neoliberal capitalism. And the problems you're identifying are literally the opposite of the problems that those attacking neoliberalism from the nativist right are complaining about. And their proposed solutions are more likely to damage the climate and traditional modes of work than neoliberalism is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Paco said: Why do we even have elections when we don't know what any potential government might actually do? The little people should just leave it to the powers that be. They know nothing! You say that like it's sarcastic, but that's literally correct. The vast majority of human beings are fucking morons. Democracy is like asking a six-year-old illiterate to design and build you a functioning jumbo jet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 The vast majority of human beings are fucking morons. Democracy is like asking a six-year-old illiterate to design and build you a functioning jumbo jet. ^great description of your typical yoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Ad Lib said: You say that like it's sarcastic, but that's literally correct. The vast majority of human beings are fucking morons. Democracy is like asking a six-year-old illiterate to design and build you a functioning jumbo jet. Are you OK? That reads like the manifesto of a teenager away to go on a shooting spree. I just want you to check yourself before you wreck yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 On 09/11/2016 at 18:18, ICTChris said: Some of the things people don't like about Neo-Liberalism and globalisation are the things that you like about them. I don't know about least-shite system but we might miss it when it's gone. Peter Hitchens is off his rocker in a hundred ways but he's actually quite right when he calls Cameron a Blairite. Really since the 1992 Electon Britain has been run by centrists, some inclining to the Right (Major and Caneron) and others inclining to the Left (Blair and Brown). The idea that you have a healthy growing, relatively unencumbered market economy and use that money to invest in public services has been dominant for the last two decades, including within Scotland. It's tweaked here and there depending on who implements it but that's the consensus. Trumpism appears as though it'll change that. He's recognised that for some the importance of familiarity, order, your people is utmost. That goes against liberalism and globalisation. I sympathise with your view on democracy but at the risk of quoting Churchill I really cannot think of a better alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 You say that like it's sarcastic, but that's literally correct. The vast majority of human beings are fucking morons. Democracy is like asking a six-year-old illiterate to design and build you a functioning jumbo jet. I pretty much agree with this post. Especially in groups, humans can be unbelievably fucking thick. But you seem to equate attacking neoliberalism from the right with attacking it from the left. They are entirely different angles of perception. Capitalism has to be controlled. It's all about the degree of that control - and societies through governments have to get a lot of that control back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Neoliberals aren't against lots of investment into public research. Neoliberal models want the public to invest heavily in research only for a corporation to then hijack that research for massive profit - without returning anything to the public! It's theft. Public money being filtered (legally I hasten to add) into a few private pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 24 minutes ago, pandarilla said: I pretty much agree with this post. Especially in groups, humans can be unbelievably fucking thick. It's not even about people being thick they are just uneducated. The problem is where you would draw the line. I would say I know enough to make an informed decision but so would everyone. I think a basic civics or legal courses in schools should be mandatory. As someone who did Advanced Higher Modern Studies you can pass that with not the first clue about how the country operates. It's far too focussed on party politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Economic ideas are pretty complex and require a very specific vocabulary to describe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism Quote These include extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy The problem is neoliberalism tends to be used for anything that is not overt socialism. For example the last Labour government is heavily attacked as "neoliberal" when they were far more Keynsian, they significantly increased regulation and the size of the state spending as a % GDP even before the financial crisis. Most people on the left refer to the Obama government as neoliberal yet his government is the shining example of rejecting austerity and borrowing your way back to growth. Both governments have attributes of neoliberalism but they have attributes of many economic theories. Both are probably best described as very mildly social democrat. Globalization has been underway since 1492. It stalled in the 30s but since then has been up and running again. Is it bad? Well its biggest losers were those colonialised pre-1945. Today the western worlds non rich peoples are generally neutral, that is they have not really lost but certainly have not gained. While some industries have suffered seriously many UK industries were uncompetative with relatively similar priced labour from Europe or Japan going back to the 80s, 70s, 60s. Other industries have large outputs but simply far less people working in them due to technology changes. On the biggest scale globalisation is a good thing. The more of the peoples world who are active in its industrial activities, the more disposable wealth they have and ability to afford food, good homes, medicine and access to entertainment. Spreading material wealthy to the worlds poor is a good thing. A very good thing in my book. And the more people are active in the global economy the more activity there is the more jobs there are. Larger factories are able to harness gains in productivity and efficiency from producing in greater volume. This allows more products to be produced cheaper allowing material wealth to spread even further. The problem has been (in my view) that the rate of growth has been driven by businesses seeking to profit in the short term from lower wages than seeing more people entering the economy on better wages but at a slightly slower rate. Had trade barriers fallen slower and allowed been more strongly conditioned on improving worker conditions and pay then globalisaion would have worked far better for all but the wealthy (in my view). Instead it was used as a crude tool to smash workers rights. The problem with that is the workers are also consumers. Thus new workers have entered the global economy with much lower wages and the western\developed worlds wages have stagnated, this leads the potential deflation we have seen in the world over the past 17 years. This is the core source of the financial instability and the need for huge growth in debt to cover for reducing\flat wages. First it was private debt via property bubbles and now government debt and inflated currencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 2 hours ago, Ad Lib said: Democracy is like asking a six-year-old illiterate to design and build you a functioning jumbo jet. "We believe that sovereignty rests with the people and that authority in a democracy derives from the people." (Taken from the Liberal Democrats own constitution, for the benefit of anyone other than Graeme Cowie that might care) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 "We believe that sovereignty rests with the people and that authority in a democracy derives from the people." (Taken from the Liberal Democrats own constitution, for the benefit of anyone other than Graeme Cowie that might care) You need to keep up chief. Do you think ad lib doesn't know this? He's been clear that parties have to say that to get elected but actually the system is pretty shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McSpreader Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 2 hours ago, Ad Lib said: You say that like it's sarcastic, but that's literally correct. The vast majority of human beings are fucking morons. Democracy is like asking a six-year-old illiterate to design and build you a functioning jumbo jet. Firstly, this is one of the most interesting and illuminating threads on here in recent times. On the whole , some very incisive and intelligent comment......Apart fromAd lib, unfortunately who is determined to drag this thread through the gutter. His contempt for the electorate is breath taking and the very reason people are voting for the Trumps of this world. Secondly, Let's quickly analyse he achievements of the ruling neo liberal elite over the past 100 years......WW1, The Great Depression, WW2, The Iron Curtain ,Apartheid, The Cold War, Wars in Suez, Cyprus , Korea, Vietnam, The Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan etc , African genocide , Banking crises, Financial crises in the Eurozone, Austerity, National debt of trillions, Mass deforestation, Global warming , mass immigration/refugees from regional conflicts.........and more besides. If Globalised Neoliberalsm was a shop there wouldnae be anything there I'd want to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 14 minutes ago, McSpreader said: Secondly, Let's quickly analyse he achievements of the ruling neo liberal elite over the past 100 years......WW1, The Great Depression, WW2, The Iron Curtain ,Apartheid, The Cold War, Wars in Suez, Cyprus , Korea, Vietnam, The Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan etc , African genocide , Banking crises, Financial crises in the Eurozone, Austerity, National debt of trillions, Mass deforestation, Global warming , mass immigration/refugees from regional conflicts.........and more besides. I think you have them confused with the Elders of the Protocols of Zion. Neoliberals are only responsible for everything evil since 1979. I really like the Iron Curtain though. That Stalin, what a card he was hiding his love of Hayek under his Marxist-Leninist rougish exterior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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