No Voters - what say you?

[RussellAnderson]

Good thread here. Will keep up with it. I don't have a lot to say to be honest. Not yet. I mouthed off a lot last referendum, pro-Yes, and I don't think it worked amongst my pals, so this time I'll go softly-softly-catchy-independence. 

For me it comes down to the base principles. I believe that Scotland is a nation, but we effectively don't have a say in how we are governed. I'm sure there was a stat that said the only UK election where Scotland's votes mattered was 2010 when our Lib Dem votes forced the coalition. Unsure how accurate it was, but regardless, we are outvoted by England approximately 10:1. What England wants, England gets. This is fine if you identify Scotland as a region. London was outvoted by Middle England in the EU Referendum, for example. For me, it just doesn't make sense. I don't want an English government setting rules for Scotland, at a fundamental level, in the same way as I don't want an American one, or a French one. I see us as a different country and will vote accordingly. 

Now, putting this in context, I'm a 22 year old, relatively well educated, white male, with no savings, no house, and relatively good job prospects. I understand that a flag-waving patriotic argument like the one above won't often wash on world-weary types who are more cynical than me. That's why I'll be keeping tabs on this thread, to broaden the range of views I can be exposed to. 

[Hedgecutter]

I'll be keeping tabs on it out of interest regarding the genuine overall benefits.

I'm not really bothered with the "we can easily go at it alone" type posts. What I want to be convinced by is that, overall, we will live better lives in the UK than in an iScotland. So far I am far, far from convinced.

[DrewDon]

Good idea for a thread.

Whilst I am now strongly pro-independence, this has not always been the case; I was a soft 'No' in 2014. Whilst Brexit might have been the final straw, certain areas of my political and constitutional thinking had changed sufficiently in the interim period to make me consider myself open to voting for Scotland to be independent in the future. It is perhaps difficult to articulate, but I basically believe that the United Kingdom is out of time; it is past its sell-by date. Since I have been on a journey from 'No' to 'Yes', however, I am willing to listen to different opinions and attempt to understand them; I have friends and family members who are not yet convinced by the case for independence, and a victory in the next referendum will ultimately depend on convincing enough of those voters to change their minds. 

A couple of weeks ago, for academic purposes, I revisited Rob Johns' post-referendum presentation - Why Scotland Voted No - on the main factors motivating 'Yes' and 'No' voters respectively in 2014. He concluded that, whilst identity provided the core base for both campaigns, 'economic risk' determined the end outcome. He alleges that the lead for 'No' was not an expression of great preference for multi-level governance amongst 'No' voters, that there was a dearth of enthusiasm about the Union, and, perhaps most crucially, a 'No' vote could not be explained by a feeling of widespread pessimism about independence. He emphasised feelings of fear, risk, loss and uncertainty; independence as an 'existential threat'. The average voter identified as more Scottish than British, desired almost all powers to be held at a Scottish level, was sceptical about the legitimacy of the Westminster government, and was not broadly pessimistic about independence - but harboured adequate economic and financial doubts to dissuade them of the case. 

It is pivotal, with this in mind, to, as far as possible, nail the economic arguments - including on the question of currency. There is also work to be done on minimising the fears people hold regarding their individual financial standings following independence; polling from the fortnight previous to the 2014 vote indicated that 45% of voters believed that backing 'Yes' would render them financially worse off post-independence, compared to only one-in-five who thought the opposite. Johns states that the Better Together campaign in 2014 did not change many Scots' minds or what the median Scottish voter actually wanted, but worried enough voters about the risks of independence - particularly economic and financial - to ensure that 'No' won the day. In working to win a majority this time around, it will be of the utmost importance to address these factors and issues from the very beginning of the campaign. 

I will follow this thread with interest; I am not sure how many minds - if any - will be changed, but I applaud the attitude and intention nevertheless. 

[Gordon EF]

20 minutes ago, DrewDon said:

Whilst I am now strongly pro-independence, this has not always been the case; I was a soft 'No' in 2014.

People like yourself will be pivotal to the success of the next referendum. You know first hand what it takes to take the step to Yes. If enough people like you can nudge one or two others over to Yes, we'll win this one.

[Crùbag]

Good piece on Bella from a No-to-Yes voter.

Quote

Holyrood Park is busy – the route to the top is thronged and I hear snatches of conversation in many languages: French, then Polish, French again. A group of fit-looking German men files onto the path above me. It seems to me, returning after an absence of a few months, that Edinburgh increasingly feels like a European capital.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/03/15/politics-on-the-hill-an-edinburgh-view/

And another from a 'top' economist - there does seem to be more and more economists embracing I-Scotland while also expressing dismay at Brexitshambles.

Quote

 

THE ECONOMIC CASE for Scottish independence with the European single market is “much stronger” than in 2014, with the benefits for the economy and public services “almost a certainty”, according to an Oxford economist who previously opposed independence. 

Simon Wren-Lewis, Professor of economic policy at the Blavatnik School of government at Oxford University and a fellow of Merton College, said that the direction of economic policy at Westminster now made the case for a successful independent Scotland. 

 

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10552/top-oxford-economist-changes-mind-back-financial-benefits-scottish-independence

[Jambomo]

1 hour ago, Crùbag said:

 

And another from a 'top' economist - there does seem to be more and more economists embracing I-Scotland while also expressing dismay at Brexitshambles.

 

I think Brexit really is the key here. We aren't really feeling the effects yet, or seeing the negotiations in progress but whilst before we had the choice between a stable and good economy, we are now really choosing between two poorer outcomes when it comes to the economy.

There is no point in pretending that an Indy Scotland will suddenly be prosperous or wealthy but now many of the positives given for staying in the UK - our banks not leaving, strength of the pound, our strong trade with the rUK - are going if not already gone.

Even in the hands of strong politicians with a goodwill towards relations with the EU, Brexit would always be tricky - its impossible to get a better deal than we currently have, but a good deal may have been possible. Unfortunately May, Davies are not strong politicians and are already setting expectations with talk of the EU giving us a bad deal and "No deal is better than a bad one" I firmly believe they know that they will get very little and are trying to blame the EU for it. No deal will be a huge loss for the UK economy, it will be hit hard anyway but there is no real prospect of a Brexit which will allow us to maintain our current economy or standard of living.

So then the choice comes down to who can offer the best prospect of recovery. I think that Independence offers that. People may not like the SNP or think they have been poor in Government but they do have a clear idea of what they want to achieve and I think, Scotland retains the good-will of the likes of the EU to try and support us, which can only bode better for recovery than the threats and constant confusion of Westminster.

[Crùbag]

4 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

I think Brexit really is the key here. We aren't really feeling the effects yet, or seeing the negotiations in progress but whilst before we had the choice between a stable and good economy, we are now really choosing between two poorer outcomes when it comes to the economy.

There is no point in pretending that an Indy Scotland will suddenly be prosperous or wealthy but now many of the positives given for staying in the UK - our banks not leaving, strength of the pound, our strong trade with the rUK - are going if not already gone.

Even in the hands of strong politicians with a goodwill towards relations with the EU, Brexit would always be tricky - its impossible to get a better deal than we currently have, but a good deal may have been possible. Unfortunately May, Davies are not strong politicians and are already setting expectations with talk of the EU giving us a bad deal and "No deal is better than a bad one" I firmly believe they know that they will get very little and are trying to blame the EU for it. No deal will be a huge loss for the UK economy, it will be hit hard anyway but there is no real prospect of a Brexit which will allow us to maintain our current economy or standard of living.

So then the choice comes down to who can offer the best prospect of recovery. I think that Independence offers that. People may not like the SNP or think they have been poor in Government but they do have a clear idea of what they want to achieve and I think, Scotland retains the good-will of the likes of the EU to try and support us, which can only bode better for recovery than the threats and constant confusion of Westminster.

Agree. Some seem to think 'its not that bad' but it hasn't even started. If the messy and chaotic preparations are anything to go by it's gonna be the mother of all middens.

SNP are just a vehicle for me though I do admire many of their politicians. Who knows what will happen after Indy. I'll take stock then on who to vote for.

[TheGoon]

The only people you tend to hear talkimg about "freedom of speech" being taken away are either racists or right wing nutters.

[Crùbag]

59 minutes ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

Independence supporters tell us this is a choice about what sort of society we want to live in. I don't want to live in the sort of society that I believe an independent Scotland would be. All the signs are there of a kind of liberal authoritarian regime where freedom of speech and expression is severely curtailed if it isn't what the majority agree with. Within the ruling party we have the suppression of any dissenting voices and a drive to extend this to the population. If you don't challenge existing ideas then you never evolve as a society, you regress.

 

I also think that the direction of travel in Scotland is one where the individual is increasingly absolved of responsibility for his or her own actions and society is increasingly blamed all ills. I don't wish to live in a society where people don't take responsibility and think they can blame everyone else for their predicaments.

 

I believe the EU is a dead duck and to leave the UK and rejoin a failing, undemocratic organisation like that would be madness. I believe Scotland has far more influence in the UK than it would have in the EU. There is far more political accountability in the UK- we all know who our local MP is, and we have the best of both worlds with our own parliament.

 

I think notions that Scotland be an “equal partner” in the UK is petty and ridiculous. England has 10 times the population- why should 5 million people be equal to 50million? The idea that Scotland is one homogeneous place with one homogeneous culture and viewpoint is ludicrous. The belief that England is also one homogeneous place, with one homogeneous culture and outlook which trumps Scotland's in even more ridiculous. We are a nation of equals- a vote here is the same as a vote in London or Newcastle. Our MPs votes count the same in Westminster as an MP from Cardiff or Brighton's.

 

We are part of a strong economy, we have global influence and power. We would give all that up if we left the UK. We are better placed to navigate turbulent global trends when part of a bigger, stronger union.

 

Financially we depend on trade with the rest of the UK- why on earth would we want to break away from our largest trading partner? It would harm both of us.

 

Like it or not, we will always be affected by what goes on in the rest of the UK as a smaller neighbour. In a smaller world business are able to move about freely and it makes no sense to make the rest of the UK a competitor for business. We should work together,

 

We have a shared history, culture and bonds that we should be proud of. I think throwing that all away is tragic. I have as much in common with a working man from Newcastle or Manchester as I do someone from Aberdeen, we don't become different people because of a border. We share a common outlook across these islands about how society should operate and what's right and what is wrong. It is the First Past the Post voting system which exacerbates differences and makes it easier for nationalised to present us as polarised.

 

People moan about perpetual Tory governments? That's part of democracy- the majority decides who governs, if you object to Tory rule is it not absolutely immoral to take an “I'm alright jack” approach and condemn the people of Liverpool and Sheffield to a perpetual Tory rule? Is that not the same sort of selfish attitude you dot like it Tories?

 

Scotland is a financial basket case just now as well, the economic case for leaving the UK is weaker than it was in 2014, and it dint add up then. However, the nationalists would tell you anything just to get you to go with them. They are driven by a desire to break away from England and will manipulate facts, lie and dupe the people in anyway possible just to get over the line with votes for a separate Scotland. The way that divisions and differences have been created, exaggerated and exploited for independence purposes is disgusting and to let that sort of agenda win would also be tragic.

 

That's just a collection of thoughts that I cant be bothered prrof reading, structuring or planning as nobody on here is likely to be convinced as you all seem to have your own minds made up

Can you contradict yourself even more from one paragraphy to the next? Go on, I'm sure you can.

[RussellAnderson]

They are driven by a desire to break away from England and will manipulate facts, lie and dupe the people in anyway possible just to get over the line with votes for a separate Scotland. The way that divisions and differences have been created, exaggerated and exploited for independence purposes is disgusting and to let that sort of agenda win would also be tragic.

There's plenty I disagree with you about from that post, but most of it is ideological and I can't see us seeing eye to eye, so I'll move past it.

My issue is the above section. As someone who was in favour of leaving the EU, do you agree that the above statement could be applied to the Leave campaign also? I disagree that the SNP stoke fires of division but they may well be lying about the financial case. We won't know until it happens. I feel it's a tad hypocritical for a Leave voter to be complaining about stoking division. IMO some of the rhetoric was outright racist.

[TheGoon]

3 minutes ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

Which one are you suggesting I am?

You tell me.

[williemillersmoustache]

2 hours ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

Independence supporters tell us this is a choice about what sort of society we want to live in. I don't want to live in the sort of society that I believe an independent Scotland would be. All the signs are there of a kind of liberal authoritarian regime where freedom of speech and expression is severely curtailed if it isn't what the majority agree with. Within the ruling party we have the suppression of any dissenting voices and a drive to extend this to the population. If you don't challenge existing ideas then you never evolve as a society, you regress.

 

If you've got the time to think then write all that out then you've got the time to go back and finish watching Band of Brothers. And Narcos.

And, just to choose one bit, you've got oodles of free time to go and examine and provide me the reasons for why you think 

a) The current ruling party will be in control of an independent Scotland

b) "they're of a kind of liberal authoritarian regime where freedom of speech and expression is severely curtailed"

 

Or just finish BoB and Narcos, I'm sure any of these options will be a valuable use of your time and a rewarding experience. 

[git-intae-thum]

2 hours ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

 

Scotland is a financial basket case just now as well, the economic case for leaving the UK is weaker than it was in 2014, and it dint add up then. 

Source for this. Or is it just spouting off.

Why do some brit nationalists always insist on riducule.  The Scottish economy is not a basket case.

Anyways if it were a basket case that is symptomatic of Scotland in union, receiving a block grant with no powers to deviate on fiscal policy and drive the economy. All the time having to repay a portion of huge debt built up by Westminster. Who is the basket case!!!

Your argument is all over the place.

[TheGoon]

3 minutes ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

I believe in free speech even if that means listening to opinions I detest. I don't think any OPINION is more or less valid than another, I don't believe in unarguable truths, I believe everything can be and should be questioned. By pushing at the edges of acceptable opinion society evolves through the challenging and testing of ideas.

What free speech is being challenged though? I've only seen blatant hate speech condemned. There's speaking your mind, then there's being downright offensive.  

[WFAANW]

22 hours ago, Snakebite said:

Is it someone in London's fault that people in Scotland choose to drink more than those in Wales or Northern Ireland? Or that we take more recreational drugs? 

That shows that we're hard as f**k tbh and i think this a good argument for independence.

[Mudder]

2 hours ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

Independence supporters tell us this is a choice about what sort of society we want to live in. I don't want to live in the sort of society that I believe an independent Scotland would be. All the signs are there of a kind of liberal authoritarian regime where freedom of speech and expression is severely curtailed if it isn't what the majority agree with. Within the ruling party we have the suppression of any dissenting voices and a drive to extend this to the population. If you don't challenge existing ideas then you never evolve as a society, you regress.

 

I also think that the direction of travel in Scotland is one where the individual is increasingly absolved of responsibility for his or her own actions and society is increasingly blamed all ills. I don't wish to live in a society where people don't take responsibility and think they can blame everyone else for their predicaments.

 

I believe the EU is a dead duck and to leave the UK and rejoin a failing, undemocratic organisation like that would be madness. I believe Scotland has far more influence in the UK than it would have in the EU. There is far more political accountability in the UK- we all know who our local MP is, and we have the best of both worlds with our own parliament.

 

I think notions that Scotland be an “equal partner” in the UK is petty and ridiculous. England has 10 times the population- why should 5 million people be equal to 50million? The idea that Scotland is one homogeneous place with one homogeneous culture and viewpoint is ludicrous. The belief that England is also one homogeneous place, with one homogeneous culture and outlook which trumps Scotland's in even more ridiculous. We are a nation of equals- a vote here is the same as a vote in London or Newcastle. Our MPs votes count the same in Westminster as an MP from Cardiff or Brighton's.

 

We are part of a strong economy, we have global influence and power. We would give all that up if we left the UK. We are better placed to navigate turbulent global trends when part of a bigger, stronger union.

 

Financially we depend on trade with the rest of the UK- why on earth would we want to break away from our largest trading partner? It would harm both of us.

 

Like it or not, we will always be affected by what goes on in the rest of the UK as a smaller neighbour. In a smaller world business are able to move about freely and it makes no sense to make the rest of the UK a competitor for business. We should work together,

 

We have a shared history, culture and bonds that we should be proud of. I think throwing that all away is tragic. I have as much in common with a working man from Newcastle or Manchester as I do someone from Aberdeen, we don't become different people because of a border. We share a common outlook across these islands about how society should operate and what's right and what is wrong. It is the First Past the Post voting system which exacerbates differences and makes it easier for nationalised to present us as polarised.

 

People moan about perpetual Tory governments? That's part of democracy- the majority decides who governs, if you object to Tory rule is it not absolutely immoral to take an “I'm alright jack” approach and condemn the people of Liverpool and Sheffield to a perpetual Tory rule? Is that not the same sort of selfish attitude you dot like it Tories?

 

Scotland is a financial basket case just now as well, the economic case for leaving the UK is weaker than it was in 2014, and it dint add up then. However, the nationalists would tell you anything just to get you to go with them. They are driven by a desire to break away from England and will manipulate facts, lie and dupe the people in anyway possible just to get over the line with votes for a separate Scotland. The way that divisions and differences have been created, exaggerated and exploited for independence purposes is disgusting and to let that sort of agenda win would also be tragic.

 

That's just a collection of thoughts that I cant be bothered prrof reading, structuring or planning as nobody on here is likely to be convinced as you all seem to have your own minds made up

Sorry but I could only quickly glance at this pile of shite , it's a bit like Monty python's 'funniest joke sketch' 

The part I saw about An independent Scotland giving up it largest trading partner ...The UK...eh? Why would trading stop between an....Oh f**k it ,stupid me , almost tried to converse with Rangers fan about Independence there!

[williemillersmoustache]

All the signs are THERE I.e over THERE. I don't need English lessons thanks very much.
I have started OZ I will finish restart narcos, BoB can bolt- war stuff bores me.

My apologies misread.

The rest of the stuff is mental, honestly take one assertion a day and try looking for something to back it up.

And do finish Narcos

[Mudder]

4 minutes ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

Rangers fan?

Yes, Airdrie.

[Jamaldo]

No-one has ever been able to explain how Scotland becoming independent would condemn the North of England to Tory Rule forever. Given how our votes are irrelevant in determining who wins the election and England's votes are the only ones that are relevant, I would suggest that voters in the north of England have far more say in getting rid of the Tories. The problem is most of them keep voting.....Conservative.

This is another of these myths that if you repeat it enough you'll convince yourself it's true. It isn't.

[Chapelhall chap]

1 minute ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

Rangers fan?

No doubt you'll get the usual "no bus fare" comment. A lot of my Old firm colleagues could never accept that as an Airdrie fan I disliked both of their ideologies.( And Motherwell)