New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Robert James]

13 hours ago, Albert McFly said:

Edinburgh Utd have applied 

Knowledge or rumour  about Ed Utd ?

I am guessing that Blackburn will apply.

EoSL will need 2 divisions of equal status in 2018/19, with a play off between the 2 divisional winners to decide which club is promoted (assuming they are licensed and beat the SoSL champions at the end of next season). The top and bottom halves of the 2 EoSL divisions will then become Premier & Division One (respectively) in 2019/20, selected on merit.

Would the EoSL create a third Division  if more junior clubs apply to join in 2020 ?

 

 

[MDM]

Why should the loyal members of the EoSFL be pushed aside to accommodate new clubs?

In the past, when the league had 2 divisions if a new club came along they were placed in the bottom division and the challenge was for them to work their way up.  Why should this change because we have so called 'superior' teams joining?

Lets not forget that these teams aren't joining the league because they see it is a step up - they see the league as a stepping stone to a step-up.  They'll have no loyalty to the league what-so-ever.

There also shouldn't be assumptions that these teams join the league with the same standing as they do at present, I'm sure they'll lose some quality as players will leave as they don't fancy the step 'down'.

The solution should be the top 8/9 teams at the end of this season should be in division 1 - the rest should be in division 2.

I accept that we 'may' have a season where the better team/s are in the lower division, but the league has to be seen to be doing the right thing for all current members.

[Burnie_man]

Why should the loyal members of the EoSFL be pushed aside to accommodate new clubs?
In the past, when the league had 2 divisions if a new club came along they were placed in the bottom division and the challenge was for them to work their way up.  Why should this change because we have so called 'superior' teams joining?
Lets not forget that these teams aren't joining the league because they see it is a step up - they see the league as a stepping stone to a step-up.  They'll have no loyalty to the league what-so-ever.
There also shouldn't be assumptions that these teams join the league with the same standing as they do at present, I'm sure they'll lose some quality as players will leave as they don't fancy the step 'down'.
The solution should be the top 8/9 teams at the end of this season should be in division 1 - the rest should be in division 2.
I accept that we 'may' have a season where the better team/s are in the lower division, but the league has to be seen to be doing the right thing for all current members.

Not every club who moves over from Junior football thinks or expects to walk straight through the EoS to the LL. It will be their new home and in the long run it will be the top Junior clubs who expect and hope their stay is temporary.

I also think there has to be some recognition of the standard of new clubs joining and not just dismiss it out of hand.

[edinabear]

If there are enough teams to make two leagues then the new clubs need to slot in beneath the existing EofS league. 

Perhaps the board of EofS can speak to Tweedmouth, Ormiston and whoever else and ask whether they would like to play in EofS 2. Also there is a argument that Stirling Uni reserves should be put to a lower league, but dont want to get into the whole reserves/colt team thing now.....

Assuming EofS 1 can go to 16 teams, this would free up 5-6 places.

The rest can and should join Eofs 2. Junior teams should be slotted in, in the order they finish in the Junior Pyramid.

[Ginaro]

3 hours ago, MDM said:

Why should the loyal members of the EoSFL be pushed aside to accommodate new clubs?

I suppose if the top Junior teams were told they could go straight into division 1 it might encourage even more to join, which would ensure there's plenty of teams involved in a two division setup.

And it might be that some of the EoSFL clubs would prefer that they weren't in the same division as the top Junior teams, given some of the one-sided results we've seen in this season.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Ginaro

[heedthebaa]

I can’t argue with your points MDM, but surely common sense has to play a big part in all this. There’s been too many pumping this season, why any club would want that to keep happening Is beyond me. You could give a list of the clubs for next season to anyone and without self interest, we would all split them into 2 fair and competitive leagues

[HibeeJibee]

Tbf, 2 divisions needn't be Premier / First, at least initially.

If you had say 20 clubs you could e.g. run 2 conferences of 10 (populated geographically, randomly or seeded) which if like American football would be 28 games + championship match.

Then top 7-8 clubs in each + relegated LL clubs form Premier the following season... remaining clubs + further new entrants form First.

[MDM]

26 minutes ago, heedthebaa said:

split them into 2 fair and competitive leagues

heedthebaa - that's exactly what we'd be doing if we split the league using the top 8/9 teams from this season in the league in one division; and the newcomers in another.

We also have to think longer term. What happens if there's another influx of new teams from the Juniors the following season, and the season after that......  continual carve-ups each season to suit the so called big guns? 

Then there's the question of how you rate the teams.  If Hawick drop down at the end of this season having won just one game, how do you judge them? How do you judge Blackburn United?

[MDM]

1 hour ago, Ginaro said:

it might encourage even more to join

Ginaro - it's not about the EoSFL trying to 'encourage' Junior teams to join, it's the Juniors who are now trying to jump on the pyramid after ignoring the pleas from the SFA to join in years ago.

The Juniors are playing catch-up now through their own fault and it's wrong that people are looking to accomodate them at the cost of the loyal and established members of the EoSfl.

Let's remember that the EoSFL have ridden through some tough times lately after so many team jumped ship and joined the Lowland League.  No one gave a thought about the damage the league would suffer then, and it says a lot about the teams that stuck with the league like Eyemouth, Peebles, Coldstream - teams that could have left and joined local leagues.

It is right that those teams are given priority and respect in any new set-up.

[MDM]

13 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Tbf, 2 divisions needn't be Premier / First, at least initially.

If you had say 20 clubs you could e.g. run 2 conferences of 10 (populated geographically, randomly or seeded) which if like American football would be 28 games + championship match.

Then top 7-8 clubs in each + relegated LL clubs form Premier the following season... remaining clubs + further new entrants form First.

So the following season we have (for example) Linlithgow Rose, Penicuik Athletic, BoNess United, Newtongrange Star, Camelon, Sauchie all joining the EoSFL - and starting from the bottom division?

[Burnie_man]

36 minutes ago, MDM said:

Then there's the question of how you rate the teams.  If Hawick drop down at the end of this season having won just one game, how do you judge them? How do you judge Blackburn United?

Since we've been name checked.  The EoS is a single division league and I guess new applicants are applying on that basis.  If it transpires that membership exceeds what is feasible to run a single league set-up then a fair way of splitting the clubs into two/three/four divisions is required.  All members are equal I assume regardless of length of membership.

In following seasons once the multiple division set-up is established then new clubs are applying on that basis and know what's ahead of them.

At the moment for the likes of Bonnyrigg [if they apply] to go straight into a new lower division doesn't make any sense.

[heedthebaa]

1 hour ago, MDM said:

heedthebaa - that's exactly what we'd be doing if we split the league using the top 8/9 teams from this season in the league in one division; and the newcomers in another.

We also have to think longer term. What happens if there's another influx of new teams from the Juniors the following season, and the season after that......  continual carve-ups each season to suit the so called big guns? 

Then there's the question of how you rate the teams.  If Hawick drop down at the end of this season having won just one game, how do you judge them? How do you judge Blackburn United?

 

52 minutes ago, MDM said:

Ginaro - it's not about the EoSFL trying to 'encourage' Junior teams to join, it's the Juniors who are now trying to jump on the pyramid after ignoring the pleas from the SFA to join in years ago.

The Juniors are playing catch-up now through their own fault and it's wrong that people are looking to accomodate them at the cost of the loyal and established members of the EoSfl.

Let's remember that the EoSFL have ridden through some tough times lately after so many team jumped ship and joined the Lowland League.  No one gave a thought about the damage the league would suffer then, and it says a lot about the teams that stuck with the league like Eyemouth, Peebles, Coldstream - teams that could have left and joined local leagues.

It is right that those teams are given priority and respect in any new set-up.

Again I can’t disagree with anything you’re saying MDM. None of the new clubs should expect to queue jump, but I personally wouldn’t have a problem if they did. I’m not with any club, but as I’m watching the local lads at Eyemouth, I wouldn’t want to watch what some of what I’ve seen this season happen again next season, it’s soul destroying. I’d rather Eyemouth were in a league where they can compete most weeks. What worries me is the lesser but loyal EOS clubs get swallowed up in all this, players becoming disheartened by it all and clubs leaving to go amateur. It’s exciting times for some, but not for all 

[HibeeJibee]

Tbh I was just thinking of the practicalities of forming-up such a lower division...

If for the sake of argument you had a net gain of 1 club from LL relegation, plus the existing total of 13, plus say 6 new clubs (juniors amateurs or whatever) for a total of 20 clubs, you could quite happily have 10-team Premier and 10-team First Division both playing 27 games. However to populate that First Division you would need to unexpectedly demote the bottom 4 finishers in this season's EOS League, as they couldn't have known the aim was to finish 9th or higher: which isn't very fair. Furthermore if you had additional new clubs joining the following season you'd need to expand both the divisions, which could play havoc with whatever promotion/relegation was instituted.

By a conference model no-one could have to be unexpectedly demoted, and everyone could know top 7-8 finish in conference = Premier, while rest = First alongwith the additional new clubs.

Edited March 16, 2018 by HibeeJibee

[Robert James]

5 hours ago, MDM said:

Why should the loyal members of the EoSFL be pushed aside to accommodate new clubs?

In the past, when the league had 2 divisions if a new club came along they were placed in the bottom division and the challenge was for them to work their way up.  Why should this change because we have so called 'superior' teams joining?

Lets not forget that these teams aren't joining the league because they see it is a step up - they see the league as a stepping stone to a step-up.  They'll have no loyalty to the league what-so-ever.

There also shouldn't be assumptions that these teams join the league with the same standing as they do at present, I'm sure they'll lose some quality as players will leave as they don't fancy the step 'down'.

The solution should be the top 8/9 teams at the end of this season should be in division 1 - the rest should be in division 2.

I accept that we 'may' have a season where the better team/s are in the lower division, but the league has to be seen to be doing the right thing for all current members.

Having read the other  responses to your post, it doesn't seem like many agree with your view.

To clarify my own position, I am not a supporter of junior football, and have no respect for those who have attacked and ridiculed the Pyramid since it was created. In fact I am and will remain a supporter of the EoSL, and am delighted that it has survived the crisis of the last few years.

However, for ONE season only, all current and new EoSL clubs would benefit from having 2 equal status divisions in 2018/19, split thereafter into divisions which would then be based on performance on the field in the EoSL . In my view, the EoSL clubs will vote for this at the league's AGM (if sufficient new clubs apply to join), in the interests of  fair integration.  It should also be remembered that at its AGM in 2014, some of the weaker 2nd tier EoSL clubs didn't want two divisions being merged into one, as reflected in the vote which was tied  8-8 at the meeting, with a change to one division (presumably) approved by the chairman's casting vote. 

Two  equal status EoSL divisions  for 2018/19 is in the best medium/long term interest of an integrated non-league structure, may well encourage other East junior clubs to move to the pyramid in the future. However this will only be in response to genuine vacancies arising at that time, as such clubs will have 'missed the boat' by not entering the pyramid at joining Tier 6, at this time, when they had the opportunity to do so. 

If subsequently a WoSL 'feeder' league is created, populated primarily by West junior clubs, it will  also join the pyramid at Tier 6 . 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

In the past they've had as many as 18 in a single division, but they've also been divided into 'Edinburgh' & 'Border' Sections with a championship playoff.

In 1966-67 they even started with the geographic sections playing x2 before a split into 'Section A' & 'Section B'. The winner of 'Section A' was declared the league champion as it contained the Top 4 from each geographic sections, while 'Section B' was for best of the bottom essentially.

I think as the clubs are all applying with the EoSFL as a single division, some sort of transitional format could be used to accomdate them at the same level for a year. Then you can split into Tiered Divisions.

[parsforlife]

Think talk of a regional split is fair, especially if it's going to have the likes of Clydebank involved.

I wouldn't say it's due to a view on the strength of clubs applying, this isn't being suggested to help junior sides out, it is more due to A. The number of applicants being discussed entering all at once, that's surely unusual, when was the last time 5+ clubs were applying of membership? We are also talking about clubs that would substantially increase the geographical area covered, I think that's right to be considered.

If the E.o.S does split regionally i wonder if this could be a bit of a back door to having 3 tier 6 leagues playing in the lowland section?
If in a year time with no west league a few Glasgow area sides are considering entering the pyramid I think a East of Scotland league(central section) would probably be appealing enough. Keep the section going another year some Ayrshire sides would no longer fear moving, 3-4 trips to Glasgow, potentially a couple of local games and 4-5 Edinburgh/fife games surely doesn't sound too bad?

It would be an interesting set up but may just work...

[MDM]

Of course another option could be that the league only accepts one or two clubs and keeps things simple....

[LongTimeLurker]

This just appeared on the juniors subforum and suggests the two regional divisions thing might be happening:

7 minutes ago, calmac25 said:

Saw this on twitter. Kilwinning Rangers having a fans meeting tonight discussing a number of issues including the pyramid and EoS

[kefc]

Who decides if teams are to be accepted?

From our experience the league committee and the clubs, can’t see any problem with clubs being accepted whatsoever. The association ran with healthy 2 divisions before the Lowland League, they will want to return to at least that kind of setup as soon as possible you would think.

Edited March 16, 2018 by kefc

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, gogsy said:

Who decides if teams are to be accepted?

The EoSFL member clubs. Presumably every applicant would be voted on an individual basis, likely with a majority vote seeing a club accepted. As none of the clubs are currently SFA licenced members there isn't the pressure to force an acceptance.

Looking at the history of the league there doesn't seem to be any reason why an applicant would be turned down though. They've always seemed to be quite accomodating.

EDIT: Just as an additional thought to prevent a double post. If a EoSFL West Region is on the cards, could this mean that the BSC Glasgow might chance applying for their Reserve side.

Edited March 16, 2018 by FairWeatherFan
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