New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Burnieman]

I think it's kind of understandable considering some of these teams have had "two seasons" without a proper chance of promotion

It might stick in the throat, no doubt, but if the season is null and voided, and it's same again next season, then new applicants join the Conferences and all it entails.

[LongTimeLurker]

...and Blackburn get to stay in the Premier. Vaccine rollouts are going so well that getting to 17 league games played and a ppg outcome shouldn't be mission impossible by June, so odds on second division conferences for new entrants. 

[8MileBU]

16 hours ago, Auld Heid said:

I have said for years that the BUJFC will eventually swallow up BUFC.

They are well run and ambitious and that's qualities that would only be beneficial in the long term. Add in their committee are young and have longevity on their side - a quality often lacking in clubs.
 

Yes to be fair, you have said this and other things about BUJFC for a couple of years... 

If BUJFC are a bit peeved by the rumours surrounding their true intent since their inception, then they need look no further than your big mouth.

Edited February 27, 2021 by 8MileBU

[Stoosh83]

12 hours ago, Burnieman said:

If the lowest level they can enter at offers that opportunity then of course it should. Every club outwith the Premier has that opportunity.

It can only happen if this season is null and void.

I'm sure it will be ok for blackburn to keep going in the top league though? A league they should possibly be relegated from 2seasons in a row, but get to reap the benefits whilst others suffer. Hopefully the league stick to going to a 1st division. Only fair option in my eyes.

[Burnieman]

...and Blackburn get to stay in the Premier. Vaccine rollouts are going so well that getting to 17 league games played and a ppg outcome shouldn't be mission impossible by June, so odds on second division conferences for new entrants. 

What's that even supposed to mean. I want the season to have a conclusion, not null and void. I live in your head [emoji23]

[Burnieman]

I'm sure it will be ok for blackburn to keep going in the top league though? A league they should possibly be relegated from 2seasons in a row, but get to reap the benefits whilst others suffer. Hopefully the league stick to going to a 1st division. Only fair option in my eyes.

The league have already made it clear what happens if null and void. What do you think should happen if we don't restart?

[FairWeatherFan]

10 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

What's that even supposed to mean. I want the season to have a conclusion, not null and void. I live in your head

You seem accepting of promotion and relegation based on the half season. Which is certainly better than most who want to change that aspect due to the shortened season.

[Burnieman]

You seem accepting of promotion and relegation based on the half season. Which is certainly better than most who want to change that aspect due to the shortened season.

That's what the EoS are intending to do and it's the only realistic way to conclude the season given the likely timescales available.
OK, it means we have even less games to dig ourselves out of a hole (unlikely) but it is what it is. I want to see promotion/relegation to/from the LL this season and also the new First Division get off the ground. I want to see a settled structure.
 

[Pyramidic]

Those of us that regularly visit P&B pick up certain vibes and I can now see a very interesting scenario developing which relates to the East Region clubs and the way that the WOSFL / EOSFL boundary issue is handled.

The EOSFL in my view has always been a very progressive league and has allowed clubs outwith its main catchment area to participate in the league. We have seen clubs from the South of Scotland play in the EOSFL including Annan Athletic, Dalbeattie Star, Threave Rovers and Gretna 2008. We have recently seen a place offered to Clydebank that was not taken up. The administrative boundaries of the league has remained flexible which allowed such moves.

A situation has arisen in the context of the West Lothian clubs where the EOSFL boundary would not be flexible but would be fixed. This would represent a major shift in policy. There would appear to be two options that can be followed:


Fixed Boundary:

This would define the WOSFL/ EOSFL boundary. The expectation is that West Lothian would be within the EOSFL catchment area. Justification would be on the basis of history using the same boundary that defined the West Region and East Region of the Junior grade. Clubs like Armadale Thistle, Bathgate Thistle, Fauldhouse United, Livingston United, Pumpherston Juniors, Stoneyburn Juniors, West Calder United and Whitburn Juniors would all be included in the administrative area of the EOSFL. Harthill Royal might be treated as an exception / anomaly given their geographical position.

At the same time the Tayside / EOSFL boundary would also need to be fixed for Tier 6 and below. The delineation of the boundary using the existing LL / HL Tay definition would allow Scone Thistle and Tayport to join the EOSFL. The rest of the 15 Tayside clubs that are located north of the Tay boundary would be outwith the EOSFL administrative area and would not qualify for inclusion in the East of Scotland under any circumstances.

If the above boundaries are being sorted out it will also become necessary to address the EOSFL /  SOSFL boundary and the WOSFL/ SOSFL boundary in order to ensure a consistent approach. This is where the Fixed Boundary position becomes more confusing and possibly could hamper the future development and progression of clubs that fall within the SOSFL administrative area.


Flexible Boundary:

This approach enables clubs to choose what league they prefer to participate in and their acceptance would be dependent on the votes cast by existing members.

This approach would mean that the West Lothian clubs can apply to either the EOSFL or WOSFL (or for that matter the SOSFL).

The approach would provide a “mix and match” formula that avoids hard boundaries. The approach may sound a little odd but has been consistently followed by the EOSFL and SOSFL.

The approach would mean that the Tay boundary can be challenged by the the 15 Tayside clubs north of the Tay who can make a case either as a group or individually for membership of the EOSFL.


The Crossroads:

I believe that we are currently in a fascinating position witnessing the latest episode how Non League / Semi-Professional football is going to evolve over the next couple of months.

1. If Fixed Boundaries are established we are likely to see the West Lothian clubs participating in the EOSFL along with possibly Scone Thistle and Tayport. The 15 Tayside clubs north of the Tay will be excluded. The administrative area of the EOSFL will of course need to be subject to the final approval of member clubs. I suppose that ratification would also be necessary by the WOSFL and SOSFL for their respective administrative areas.

2. If Flexible Boundaries are retained it will enable the West Lothian clubs to apply (successfully?) to the WOSFL. It also opens the doors for the 17 Tayside clubs to apply as a group and individually to join the EOSFL. Such a movement of clubs would of course be dependent on the willingness of the existing membership to accept the influx. 

3. The inclusion of the Tayside clubs is a challenging issue that brings both positive and negative aspects. It also introduces the need for regionalisation rather than a “tower“ pyramid.

4. In my book if the West Lothian clubs are allowed to join the WOSFL there is every justification for the Tayside clubs to make a case for inclusion within the the EOSFL in order to avoid being left in the equivalent of the “badlands” which Senior football is reluctant to settle.


NB: I hope that I have interpreted the “smoke signals” correctly!

[Bestsinceslicebread]

21 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Those of us that regularly visit P&B pick up certain vibes and I can now see a very interesting scenario developing which relates to the East Region clubs and the way that the WOSFL / EOSFL boundary issue is handled.

The EOSFL in my view has always been a very progressive league and has allowed clubs outwith its main catchment area to participate in the league. We have seen clubs from the South of Scotland play in the EOSFL including Annan Athletic, Dalbeattie Star, Threave Rovers and Gretna 2008. We have recently seen a place offered to Clydebank that was not taken up. The administrative boundaries of the league has remained flexible which allowed such moves.

A situation has arisen in the context of the West Lothian clubs where the EOSFL boundary would not be flexible but would be fixed. This would represent a major shift in policy. There would appear to be two options that can be followed:


Fixed Boundary:

This would define the WOSFL/ EOSFL boundary. The expectation is that West Lothian would be within the EOSFL catchment area. Justification would be on the basis of history using the same boundary that defined the West Region and East Region of the Junior grade. Clubs like Armadale Thistle, Bathgate Thistle, Fauldhouse United, Livingston United, Pumpherston Juniors, Stoneyburn Juniors, West Calder United and Whitburn Juniors would all be included in the administrative area of the EOSFL. Harthill Royal might be treated as an exception / anomaly given their geographical position.

At the same time the Tayside / EOSFL boundary would also need to be fixed for Tier 6 and below. The delineation of the boundary using the existing LL / HL Tay definition would allow Scone Thistle and Tayport to join the EOSFL. The rest of the 15 Tayside clubs that are located north of the Tay boundary would be outwith the EOSFL administrative area and would not qualify for inclusion in the East of Scotland under any circumstances.

If the above boundaries are being sorted out it will also become necessary to address the EOSFL /  SOSFL boundary and the WOSFL/ SOSFL boundary in order to ensure a consistent approach. This is where the Fixed Boundary position becomes more confusing and possibly could hamper the future development and progression of clubs that fall within the SOSFL administrative area.


Flexible Boundary:

This approach enables clubs to choose what league they prefer to participate in and their acceptance would be dependent on the votes cast by existing members.

This approach would mean that the West Lothian clubs can apply to either the EOSFL or WOSFL (or for that matter the SOSFL).

The approach would provide a “mix and match” formula that avoids hard boundaries. The approach may sound a little odd but has been consistently followed by the EOSFL and SOSFL.

The approach would mean that the Tay boundary can be challenged by the the 15 Tayside clubs north of the Tay who can make a case either as a group or individually for membership of the EOSFL.


The Crossroads:

I believe that we are currently in a fascinating position witnessing the latest episode how Non League / Semi-Professional football is going to evolve over the next couple of months.

1. If Fixed Boundaries are established we are likely to see the West Lothian clubs participating in the EOSFL along with possibly Scone Thistle and Tayport. The 15 Tayside clubs north of the Tay will be excluded. The administrative area of the EOSFL will of course need to be subject to the final approval of member clubs. I suppose that ratification would also be necessary by the WOSFL and SOSFL for their respective administrative areas.

2. If Flexible Boundaries are retained it will enable the West Lothian clubs to apply (successfully?) to the WOSFL. It also opens the doors for the 17 Tayside clubs to apply as a group and individually to join the EOSFL. Such a movement of clubs would of course be dependent on the willingness of the existing membership to accept the influx. 

3. The inclusion of the Tayside clubs is a challenging issue that brings both positive and negative aspects. It also introduces the need for regionalisation rather than a “tower“ pyramid.

4. In my book if the West Lothian clubs are allowed to join the WOSFL there is every justification for the Tayside clubs to make a case for inclusion within the the EOSFL in order to avoid being left in the equivalent of the “badlands” which Senior football is reluctant to settle.


NB: I hope that I have interpreted the “smoke signals” correctly!

The debate(s) in here are at times very good, you get to understand what  a lot of people think in their views, whether tainted by pyramid grade, junior grade, history etc..
That's why these posts on the east and west regarding the West Lothian teams are interesting but so are the other areas, Dundee and Angus, North Junior, even the Midland league, would that include Breadalbane ?.

My own view, is that to get it absolutely right there should be definitive borders set up throughout the whole country, making it known exactly what league in the pyramid they should be entering or moving into once joining, being promoted or relegated.  This boundary should be set by the governing body with consultation from all fans, clubs, committee etc...  means it will take a while but it means its sorted.  This would also mean that some teams who might be in either EOS or WOS or SOS having to move to the correct boundary or even the Dundee and angus teams, they would all know officially where they should be, same as north juniors etc..  it also means if the Dundee are is sorted and they all join then they know where they are joining to, a midland league, a feeder under the Highland league etc..

I am totally against history being used as a reason for decision, history is exactly that, history, the past and times are changing and football has to adapt.  There are people out there, fans and committee people who haven't a clue as they are bound by history, having no vision and cant work out all the variations and implications good and bad of what if.  The decisions on these matters should be made correctly as it will effect the landscapes for years and years to come in football, so I'm sure we want to see it done right.  

 

Yes in my view if boundaries are officially done in the future then even the decision that are made now can be changed and each team taken from the league they reside and put into the proper associations etc..

Edited February 27, 2021 by Bestsinceslicebread

[PastyMan]

21 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

NB: I hope that I have interpreted the “smoke signals” correctly!

Thanks for this summary.
Firstly I think it would b a HUGE mistake if the West Lothian teams join the WoS. Not simply as yet another act of self harm by those particular clubs but a harm to the West Lothian clubs in the EoS who will be denied local rivalries for no reasons other than petty (and very short term) misplaced imagined sleights.
Secondly I don't think the fixed/flexible is quite as binary as suggested. There is room for sensible flexibility at the boundary of strongly indicative regions. Luncarty were one example, Harthill is another.
Thirdly, I don't have any magic solution either for the North of Tay clubs but my gut feeling is the Highland/Lowland split is so overwhelmingly unbalanced at the moment it is time for the Highland Lague to step up and encourage a satisfactory answer for their potential feeder leagues.

[AlanCamelonfan]

23 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

The debate(s) in here are at times very good, you get to understand what  a lot of people think in their views, whether tainted by pyramid grade, junior grade, history etc..
That's why these posts on the east and west regarding the West Lothian teams are interesting but so are the other areas, Dundee and Angus, North Junior, even the Midland league, would that include Breadalbane ?.

My own view, is that to get it absolutely right there should be definitive borders set up throughout the whole country, making it known exactly what league in the pyramid they should be entering or moving into once joining, being promoted or relegated.  This boundary should be set by the governing body with consultation from all fans, clubs, committee etc...  means it will take a while but it means its sorted.  This would also mean that some teams who might be in either EOS or WOS or SOS having to move to the correct boundary or even the Dundee and angus teams, they would all know officially where they should be, same as north juniors etc..  it also means if the Dundee are is sorted and they all join then they know where they are joining to, a midland league, a feeder under the Highland league etc..

I am totally against history being used as a reason for decision, history is exactly that, history, the past and times are changing and football has to adapt.  There are people out there, fans and committee people who haven't a clue as they are bound by history, having no vision and cant work out all the variations and implications good and bad of what if.  The decisions on these matters should be made correctly as it will effect the landscapes for years and years to come in football, so I'm sure we want to see it done right.  

 

Yes in my view if boundaries are officially done in the future then even the decision that are made now can be changed and each team taken from the league they reside and put into the proper associations etc..

It's not just about history it's common sense. West lothian is the east. Look at NHS areas. They arent in a west area.

I agree their needs to be boundaries sorted out now. 

I have no problem with tayside being lowland area just not in eosfl. It would be a good year to restructure if going to do that. Get tayside and perthshire clubs and potentially look at fife if they go their or want to stay that should be looked at.

 

 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

7 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

It's not just about history it's common sense. West lothian is the east. Look at NHS areas. They arent in a west area.

I agree their needs to be boundaries sorted out now. 

I have no problem with tayside being lowland area just not in eosfl. It would be a good year to restructure if going to do that. Get tayside and perthshire clubs and potentially look at fife if they go their or want to stay that should be looked at.

 

 

agree and understand common sense but as we are both in agreement every view would be settled with official definitive boundaries.

I'm a bit different, (view has changed)  I don't mind a midland league but I'm now swinging more to seeing it in at Tier 6 just below the HL and hopefully a another HL feeder meaning over the years the HL will change with about half or more from the feeder league moving up, so if there's a team relegated from the HL that is traditionally Highland, say Dingwall area, then they would go into a new HL feeder and any team from the Midland area who eventually promoted to the HL then if relegated moves to the Midland league.
The midlands will have quite a few strong teams north of the Tay so thats why Id rather see them in the Highland and due to their location and think it would even it up a bit

This would mean
Tier 5  Highland League
Tier 6 Highlands League - Midlands League

Edited February 27, 2021 by Bestsinceslicebread
missed an important letter

[Pyramidic]

4 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

agree and understand common sense but as we are both in agreement every view would be settled with official definitive boundaries.

I'm a bit different, (view has changed)  I don't mind a midland league but I'm now swinging more to seeing it in at Tier 6 just below the HL and hopefully a another HL feeder meaning over the years the HL will change with about half or more from the feeder league moving up, so if there's a team relegated from the HL that is traditionally Highland, say Dingwall are, then they would go into a new HL feeder and any team from the Midland area who eventually promoted to the HL then if relegated moves to the Midland league.
The midlands will have quite a few strong teams north of the Tay so thats why Id rather see them in the Highland and due to their location and think it would even it up a bit

This would mean
Tier 5  Highland League
Tier 6 Highlands League - Midlands League

Would you recognise Tayport as being within the Midland League or EOSFL administrative area? If we say Tayport, Newburgh, St Andrews etc would be in the ML it becomes more messy. There are some really difficult issues to resolve. There is not an easy solution.

[Dev]

2 hours ago, PastyMan said:

Thanks for this summary.
Firstly I think it would b a HUGE mistake if the West Lothian teams join the WoS. Not simply as yet another act of self harm by those particular clubs but a harm to the West Lothian clubs in the EoS who will be denied local rivalries for no reasons other than petty (and very short term) misplaced imagined sleights.
Secondly I don't think the fixed/flexible is quite as binary as suggested. There is room for sensible flexibility at the boundary of strongly indicative regions. Luncarty were one example, Harthill is another.
Thirdly, I don't have any magic solution either for the North of Tay clubs but my gut feeling is the Highland/Lowland split is so overwhelmingly unbalanced at the moment it is time for the Highland Lague to step up and encourage a satisfactory answer for their potential feeder leagues.

.... but Luncarty went south as there was no alternative senior league for them to go to. Going senior means going for a SFA club licence rather than Tier 5 promotion to most clubs. Harthill has a local senior league already in place! ... and I don't mean the WoS. The situation is not comparable despite the wishes , allegedly, of some current East Region Juniors. 

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 hour ago, Pyramidic said:

Would you recognise Tayport as being within the Midland League or EOSFL administrative area? If we say Tayport, Newburgh, St Andrews etc would be in the ML it becomes more messy. There are some really difficult issues to resolve. There is not an easy solution.

Fife is a larger geographical area than west lothian. It also goes north and south rather than west to east. 

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 hour ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

agree and understand common sense but as we are both in agreement every view would be settled with official definitive boundaries.

I'm a bit different, (view has changed)  I don't mind a midland league but I'm now swinging more to seeing it in at Tier 6 just below the HL and hopefully a another HL feeder meaning over the years the HL will change with about half or more from the feeder league moving up, so if there's a team relegated from the HL that is traditionally Highland, say Dingwall are, then they would go into a new HL feeder and any team from the Midland area who eventually promoted to the HL then if relegated moves to the Midland league.
The midlands will have quite a few strong teams north of the Tay so thats why Id rather see them in the Highland and due to their location and think it would even it up a bit

This would mean
Tier 5  Highland League
Tier 6 Highlands League - Midlands League

I'm more in favour of them going north aswell. But I'm.actually now in favour of a lowland league 2 once enough weat clubs are licensed I think it would be a quicker way also to getting a flowing lowland league as it would soften the blow for some of the smaller lowland league clubs

[Spyro]

1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

I'm.actually now in favour of a lowland league 2 once enough weat clubs are licensed I think it would be a quicker way also to getting a flowing lowland league as it would soften the blow for some of the smaller lowland league clubs

Quite possibly the most sensible thing you’ve said. Much more sensible (once everyone is settled with licenses and leagues) to have a 2 tier LL, rather than this LL East and LL West nonsense 

[Cyclizine]

4 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Tier 6 Highlands League - Midlands League

Your "Highlands League" already exists. It's the North Caledonian League. They along with the North Juniors will almost certainly become official feeders to the Highland League next season.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

Your "Highlands League" already exists. It's the North Caledonian League. They along with the North Juniors will almost certainly become official feeders to the Highland League next season.

I'm sure like some Tayside teams, Montrose Roselea are sending off their EoSFL applications feart at the prospect of the Highland League