New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Dev]

9 minutes ago, Marten said:

It's not ruled out, the line officially only applies to relegation from the SPFL. If the HL accepts the Midland League as a feeder, there is no reason why a south of Tay club like Tayport couldn't end up in the HL if they win the ML as a licensed club and then win a promotion play-off. The Highland League doesn't restrict membership of the league to a certain area in their constitution (neither does the LL), so Tayport could get up to the HL in theory.

Obviously there is the scope for boundaries between the EOS and ML and between the HL and LL (for more than just SPFL relegated teams), but for that a new agreement between the relevant parties is needed, which is not in place now.

Don't agree with your assessment of the not ruled out but it is something which needs to be discussed by the new Midlands League and the Lowland League/Highland League. Clubs need certainty so they can make decisions quickly as it looks as though 21/22 is a possible starter within the Pyramid for the new Midlands league as well as the N Cal and North Juniors.

[LongTimeLurker]

Before tying themselves in knots over Tayport vs Luncarty vs Harthill, I think people should ponder the question of whether the infamous line of latitude will even still be there in a Club 42 context if the colt team reconstruction plan gets voted through. The last line of this newspaper story along with the way two LL and two HL clubs get a promotion out of it suggest that the LL and HL may have already signed off on the plan and that inherently provides scope for some sort of Club 42 playoff rule change in line with what the SPFL wanted last season:

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Pyramidic]

A headline we have waited an eternity for! Onwards and upwards for the Hoose. A reasonable chance of Premier Division football for 2022/23 assuming this season is declared null and void.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/fauldhouse-united-become-latest-west-23772138

[Buddy]

1 hour ago, Pyramidic said:

Hope that they can address the issue of the Tay boundary and the anomaly that would arise if Tayport and Scone Thistle are allowed to compete in a ML feeding into the HL.

A properly reasoned and fair justification would need to be established for Tayport and Scone to be treated as an exception. Their circumstances in my view are very different to Harthill and Luncarty.

Tayport were all ready to go to the East of Scotland as confirmed by their chairman publicly. Rumours now that they have shelved that over a preference to stay with the Tayside clubs  and enter a Midlands League at tier 6 rather than a lower tier in the EOS. That's understandable but it makes Forfar West End's application to the EOS a little bit more confusing. No disrespect to FWE but they don't appear to have been at the forefront on change in the east region so why apply now and go public with it when they could just sit tight and tuck into a tier 6 Midlands League with the others?

[LongTimeLurker]

Just now, Buddy said:

...so why apply now and go public with it when they could just sit tight and tuck into a tier 6 Midlands League with the others?

Obvious answer is they don't believe the tier 6 ML is actually going to happen because of the blazer politics involved. If it's in the LL catchment the EoS have the same veto they did over the east region entering. They've already stated this about the HL angle:

 

[Pyramidic]

3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

How exactly can you see Harthill and Luncarty as an exception but not Tayport? The line of latitude runs through part of the town/village, just like Luncarty. The ground happens to be the wrong side of for their preference of feeder league ifthe Midland goes Highland.

The only difference is that if Tayport chose to remain with Tayside teams, they'd be the only one of the three to stick with traditional rivals.

Fife is firmly EOSFL territory. The slither of land that is north of the boundary is a cartographical anomaly. In any event the Tayport ground is outwith the “slither”.

It would be great if someone can provide a Luncarty type definition plan. I am not so good with knocking up plans.

Please FairWeatherFan provide a justification for Scone’s inclusion in the ML based on geographical parameters. 

If Scone go into the ML it will represent a way that the EOSFL may “leach out” Perth clubs to the ML in the future.

[sdr71]

49 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

 

Please FairWeatherFan provide a justification for Scone’s inclusion in the ML based on geographical parameters. 

 

Try looking at a map comparing where the teams in Scone's current league are with those that they would likely be playing in the EoS, and figure out which of the two keeps their historic rivalries and reduces travel times.

[Buddy]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Obvious answer is they don't believe the tier 6 ML is actually going to happen because of the blazer politics involved. If it's in the LL catchment the EoS have the same veto they did over the east region entering. They've already stated this about the HL angle:

 

Makes sense. Like others have said before, fair play to Forfar West End for having enough about them to not just toe the party line. Sure it won't have won them much good grace with the blazers up there. They appear to have gone public despite knowing that however! Ruffled a few feathers? Seems to have been a call to action on behalf of the juniors just after FWE announced their intentions so at least it's got something moving whether that was their intention or not.

[GNU_Linux]

Regarding the Tayside clubs are they looking for an option to retain SJFA membership ala the WOSL?

Edited March 22, 2021 by GNU_Linux

[FairWeatherFan]

54 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Fife is firmly EOSFL territory. The slither of land that is north of the boundary is a cartographical anomaly. In any event the Tayport ground is outwith the “slither”.

It would be great if someone can provide a Luncarty type definition plan. I am not so good with knocking up plans.

Please FairWeatherFan provide a justification for Scone’s inclusion in the ML based on geographical parameters. 

If Scone go into the ML it will represent a way that the EOSFL may “leach out” Perth clubs to the ML in the future.

I don't have any thoughts on Scone. They've not said anything publicly either. Whereas Tayport have said they would like to remain in a Midland League if one happens. They meet all the criteria that Harthill and Luncarty have in having a choice and if the Midland League goes North they're even choosing the one that involves the most travel. Being from "Fife" is a bit meaningless when you're closer to Dundee, there's a reason they built a bridge nearby.

[patriot1]

1 hour ago, Pyramidic said:

Fife is firmly EOSFL territory. The slither of land that is north of the boundary is a cartographical anomaly. In any event the Tayport ground is outwith the “slither”.

It would be great if someone can provide a Luncarty type definition plan. I am not so good with knocking up plans.

Please FairWeatherFan provide a justification for Scone’s inclusion in the ML based on geographical parameters. 

If Scone go into the ML it will represent a way that the EOSFL may “leach out” Perth clubs to the ML in the future.

Can we please refrain from putting up any more maps on here. The whole Luncarty debate provided enough grid references and maps to last a lifetime.

If there are discussions taking place to form a Midland League then I am sure there will be boundaries set in the same way as the WOS and EOS have done recently. Tayport and Scone will fall into either the ML or EOS. We’ll find out which soon enough.

[GordonS]

5 hours ago, Marten said:

It's not ruled out, the line officially only applies to relegation from the SPFL. If the HL accepts the Midland League as a feeder, there is no reason why a south of Tay club like Tayport couldn't end up in the HL if they win the ML as a licensed club and then win a promotion play-off. The Highland League doesn't restrict membership of the league to a certain area in their constitution (neither does the LL), so Tayport could get up to the HL in theory.

Obviously there is the scope for boundaries between the EOS and ML and between the HL and LL (for more than just SPFL relegated teams), but for that a new agreement between the relevant parties is needed, which is not in place now.

Though as you know, that could lead to Tayport wining the ML, the HL, getting promoted to L2 and then getting relegated to... the LL. From which, if they got relegated, presumably they'd be in the EoS? 

It may seem far-fetched but 16-17 years ago Tayport were the best Junior side in the country, and then they got relegated from the EoSJFA Premier. That's exactly the sort of trajectory that would lead to this kind of movement.

Failure to deal with the line now, while everyone is paying attention, will likely come back to bite us.

I know what my preferred resolution would be but we all wield our own crayons on this one.

[Pyramidic]

36 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Though as you know, that could lead to Tayport wining the ML, the HL, getting promoted to L2 and then getting relegated to... the LL. From which, if they got relegated, presumably they'd be in the EoS? 

It may seem far-fetched but 16-17 years ago Tayport were the best Junior side in the country, and then they got relegated from the EoSJFA Premier. That's exactly the sort of trajectory that would lead to this kind of movement.

Failure to deal with the line now, while everyone is paying attention, will likely come back to bite us.

I know what my preferred resolution would be but we all wield our own crayons on this one.

Hopefully the SFA/PWG/ERJFA/ NRJFA/NCFL/HL/LL/EOSFL and Tayside clubs can quickly agree the Tay boundary conundrum.

[LongTimeLurker]

29 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Hopefully the SFA/PWG/ERJFA/ NRJFA/NCFL/HL/LL/EOSFL and Tayside clubs can quickly agree the Tay boundary conundrum.

That along with where or whether an ML fits in would no doubt be why the PWG would be reconvening as mentioned in the leaked east region email statement. Not clear what they would even need to discuss otherwise if Dundee/Angus/Blairgowrie&Coupar Angus = HL catchment was unambiguously done and dusted. All other pyramid issues have either already happened (WoS being formed to get the west region clubs in last year) or are non-controversial at this point (complete collapse of the east region south as all remaining clubs will try to join EoS or WoS next season, and up north NCL & north region as future tier 6 under the HL if the agreement ever gets finalised).

Edited March 22, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

That would no doubt be why the PWG would be reconvening as mentioned in the leaked east region email statement. Not clear what they would even need to discuss otherwise if Dundee/Angus/Blairgowrie&Coupar Angus = HL catchment was unambiguously done and dusted. All other pyramid issues have either already happened (WoS being formed to get the west region clubs in last year) or are non-controversial at this point (complete collapse of the east region south as all remaining clubs will join EoS or WoS next season, and up north NCL & north region as future tier 6 under the HL if the agreement ever gets finalised).

There's also the Rules and Regulations side of things. The SFA need to approve new leagues and it looks like however this goes comes a rebrand and not just the existing ERSJFA taking up space. The SFA wanted the SJFA to do disciplinary for the leagues back in the PWG days, and the SJFA might not have the same resources to do that anymore. Which could see the Midland trying to fall under the JJP since they would be at Tier 6

 

[Marten]

2 hours ago, GordonS said:

Though as you know, that could lead to Tayport wining the ML, the HL, getting promoted to L2 and then getting relegated to... the LL. From which, if they got relegated, presumably they'd be in the EoS? 

It may seem far-fetched but 16-17 years ago Tayport were the best Junior side in the country, and then they got relegated from the EoSJFA Premier. That's exactly the sort of trajectory that would lead to this kind of movement.

Failure to deal with the line now, while everyone is paying attention, will likely come back to bite us.

I know what my preferred resolution would be but we all wield our own crayons on this one.

Yes, I agree with you that this issue needs to be addressed. But let's first see if the ML comes off the ground and take it from there. 

[sdr71]

5 hours ago, GordonS said:

Though as you know, that could lead to Tayport wining the ML, the HL, getting promoted to L2 and then getting relegated to... the LL. From which, if they got relegated, presumably they'd be in the EoS? 

It may seem far-fetched but 16-17 years ago Tayport were the best Junior side in the country, and then they got relegated from the EoSJFA Premier. That's exactly the sort of trajectory that would lead to this kind of movement.

Failure to deal with the line now, while everyone is paying attention, will likely come back to bite us.

I know what my preferred resolution would be but we all wield our own crayons on this one.

One solution would be, if in this situation, for the leagues concerned to agree to relegate the club in question to the league from whence they came.

[Pyramidic]

 

Clear decision making largely based on local authority boundaries is necessary to sort out the Tay boundary conundrum in the form of a joint statement similar to the one agreed between the EOSFL and WOSFL.
 

“The EOSFL and authorities acting on behalf of the ML have agreed a boundary for new member applications which is based upon local authority areas. Clubs in the Fife, Perth & Kinross (south of the Luncarty line) Council areas will be directed to apply to the EOSFL. Clubs in the Angus, Dundee and Perth & Kinross (north of the Luncarty line) Council areas will be directed to apply to the ML.”

Then repeat the second paragraph of the EOSFL/ WOSFL joint statement.

 

This in my view would provide clarity that is currently lacking. Coordinates should be provided for the “Luncarty line” as appropriate.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Pyramidic

[LongTimeLurker]

42 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

 

Clear decision making largely based on local authority boundaries is necessary to sort out the Tay boundary conundrum in the form of a joint statement similar to the one agreed between the EOSFL and WOSFL...

You could be accused of being Captain Obvious with that. What I think is a lot more interesting is why that didn't happen in the immediate aftermath the EoS-WoS statement and why the EoS twitter account had to retract misleading assertions that the Tay Bridge line of latitude was actively being used in that way? 

My guess would be that there is a real possibility that the LL will give way to the SPFL on the Club 42 boundary line and the EoS blazers don't want a rebranded east region getting in at tier 6 as a fourth LL feeder as part of the SJFA in the aftermath of that. Time will tell basically.

Edited March 23, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Stag Nation]

19 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I don't have any thoughts on Scone. They've not said anything publicly either. Whereas Tayport have said they would like to remain in a Midland League if one happens. They meet all the criteria that Harthill and Luncarty have in having a choice and if the Midland League goes North they're even choosing the one that involves the most travel. Being from "Fife" is a bit meaningless when you're closer to Dundee, there's a reason they built a bridge nearby.

Indeed there is. But the reason they built the bridge was to speed long-distance travel between Aberdeen/Dundee and the South, not to enable one man and a dog to commute from Tayport.