Oor Nicola Sturgeon thread.

[Antlion]

11 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

My main arguments are historical, emotional and cultural.

Borders have always changed on Britain, from the Kingdom of Dalriada which covered parts of what we now call Scotland and NI to Kingdoms of Strathclyde and Northumbria which straddled what we now call our border with England. 

I see very little difference between us and English people culturally and I feel British.  I'm proud of how we led the fight against slavery with our Royal Navy seizing 1600 slave ships and freeing 150000 Africans aboard with 17000 RN sailors losing their lives as a result.

I'm proud that we defeated the Nazis and fascism when they could have taken over the world.

I admire the Magna Carta and how it has influenced much of the civilised world.  The story behind it, with the taming of King John fascinates me.

I love the interesting story of the monarchy, with all it's twists and turns going back hundreds of years, and that we're known for still having Kings and Queens that live in palaces.  Bowing and scraping to figureheads in a hereditary system is out-dated?  Nah, it's deep, meaningful, traditional and a superb money-spinner!

Plenty more points, but I'll not delve into them as I'm getting emotional.  I don't want too many tears spilled on the laptop.

First and foremost, I love Britain because it's my home.

I doubt it’s tears you need to worry about spilling on the laptop. Proud of defeating the Nazis ffs. It’s 2021. The closest you’ve ever got to a Nazi is green-dotting extremists’ posts in your various guises on this forum.

[Baxter Parp]

15 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

My main arguments are historical, emotional and cultural.

So nothing worthwhile then.

[ICTJohnboy]

16 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

 

First and foremost, I love Britain because it's my home.

 

And with BoJo and his corrupt govt., pretty well ensconced in power at W/Minster for the foreseeable future, I guess that God's in his heaven, and all's well with the world - or at least your world.

[Scott Steiner]

28 minutes ago, CheeseBurger said:

Literally anyone can make these "arguments", regardless of where they stand politically. It doesn't justify the logic however. 

If border changes don't bother you, then why would one more border change bother you? 

If you're proud of how Britain "led the fight" against slavery. Are you equally as ashamed of its tyrannical imperial roots which led to the enslavement of hundreds of millions? 

I think Russia would have something to say about who really defeated the nazis tbh. You are however aware that our then current leader at the time was a self confessed fascist himself with a certain admiration for Hitler, until he was viewed as a direct threat? 

The same Magna Carta that was written and published in 1215? 

Historical stories generally are interesting, even the most insidious of them. What's it got to do with Scotland in 2021 though? 

I can't help feeling like I've been wooshed here. 

My arguments do indeed justify logic.  For me, emotion, culture and history matter more than things like GDP.

I didn't say border changes don't bother me.  I used the examples of constant border changes on these islands over the centuries to illustrate that the concept of Scotland is a relatively recent one and these islands have been divided up all sorts of ways over the years.

Before I answer about Britain's 'tyrannical imperial roots' (would appreciate you explaining this further), are you proud of how Britain led the fight against slavery?

Are you genuinely trying to downplay the role our forefathers had in defeating the Nazis?  Self-loathing in the extreme.

Yes, that Magna Carta.

Glad you agree that historical stories are interesting.. what do they have to do with Scotland now?  It's our past and have shaped who we are.  Of course they matter.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Scott Steiner

[Miguel Sanchez]

5 hours ago, Bob Mahelp said:

When I see the phrase, 'vile woman', used to describe anyone, that suggests to me an element of hate. You seem a reasonable chap, do you not agree with that ?

And that hasn't been by any means the worst of the bile poured out in that thread. Some of it suggests an element of derangement amongst certain posters, who....unable to influence events...are using the internet to get themselves ever more wound up. 

One of the more laughable pieces on nonsense that they come out with, is that anyone who doesn't agree with them 100%, is somehow a drone, just following government advice because we're all in an SNP cult. 

Wey hey....honestly, pause for laughter with that. 

Anyway, I hope and trust that your second paragraph isn't suggesting anything like that, given that for the vast, vast majority of people, it is possible to seperate political affiliation from agreeing with every single pronouncement that the said political party makes. 

P.S. I can't remember you personally ever making comments like those I've mentioned above, despite not hiding your Unionist credentials. So I'm not focussing on anything posted by your good self.

 

In all seriousness, I think you should take a break from P&B for a while. At least the non-football bits.

[Theyellowbox]

58 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

My main arguments are historical, emotional and cultural.

Borders have always changed on Britain, from the Kingdom of Dalriada which covered parts of what we now call Scotland and NI to Kingdoms of Strathclyde and Northumbria which straddled what we now call our border with England. 

I see very little difference between us and English people culturally and I feel British.  I'm proud of how we led the fight against slavery with our Royal Navy seizing 1600 slave ships and freeing 150000 Africans aboard with 17000 RN sailors losing their lives as a result.

I'm proud that we defeated the Nazis and fascism when they could have taken over the world.

I admire the Magna Carta and how it has influenced much of the civilised world.  The story behind it, with the taming of King John fascinates me.

I love the interesting story of the monarchy, with all it's twists and turns going back hundreds of years, and that we're known for still having Kings and Queens that live in palaces.  Bowing and scraping to figureheads in a hereditary system is out-dated?  Nah, it's deep, meaningful, traditional and a superb money-spinner!

Plenty more points, but I'll not delve into them as I'm getting emotional.  I don't want too many tears spilled on the laptop.

First and foremost, I love Britain because it's my home.

So nothing really current or relevant then? If the rationally for staying in a union is that we (along with many others) defeated the Nazi's and we have a royal family then I'm afraid you have no argument for the union. 

I agree we have a lot in common culturally with the rest of the UK (not sure why you reference only England), but equally there is a lot we have culturally in common with Australia, Canada, USA etc. Just because we are like other folk does not mean we should stay in a union with them.

Frankly, I assumed you'd have a better argument than that. Quite dissapointed really. 

[The_Kincardine]

49 minutes ago, CheeseBurger said:

If you're proud of how Britain "led the fight" against slavery. Are you equally as ashamed of its tyrannical imperial roots which led to the enslavement of hundreds of millions? 

That would, in proportion to population, be a Scots problem.  We were, pound for pound, much more invested in Empire than England ever was.

[Scott Steiner]

10 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

So nothing really current or relevant then? If the rationally for staying in a union is that we (along with many others) defeated the Nazi's and we have a royal family then I'm afraid you have no argument for the union. 

I agree we have a lot in common culturally with the rest of the UK (not sure why you reference only England), but equally there is a lot we have culturally in common with Australia, Canada, USA etc. Just because we are like other folk does not mean we should stay in a union with them.

Frankly, I assumed you'd have a better argument than that. Quite dissapointed really. 

These are just some examples of what makes me love my country.  All very relevant.

Why would I want my country broken up?  The idea makes me sick to the stomach.

[Antlion]

Just now, Scott Steiner said:

These are just some examples of what makes me love my country.  All very relevant.

Why would I want my country broken up?  The idea makes me sick to the stomach.

“Your” country was already broken up, in the 1920s. Scotland achieving independence would only be another step in a process already begun: the further fracturing of a broken, bleeding political union. Hope this helps.

[Theyellowbox]

4 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

These are just some examples of what makes me love my country.  All very relevant.

Why would I want my country broken up?  The idea makes me sick to the stomach.

Because maybe there is a better future out there. You can be both proud of the past and also optimistic for a different future. Do you honestly see anything in the future of this union that could even come close to the achievements you listed?

Out of interest are you 100% against the idea of independence or is there bits you would quite welcome?

I'm pro independence, but there would be bits of Britain I'd miss. I think anyone who is 100% either way is either a liar or a fool. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Theyellowbox

[Scott Steiner]

14 minutes ago, CheeseBurger said:

Something that Scotland has plenty of all on its own. 

OK, but what does any of this have to do with Scotland right now and its right to political independence? 

You're not going to answer about Britain's tyrannical imperial roots, because people such as yourself actively choose to turn a blind eye to that side of history, while selectively picking out pieces of history that show Britain in a better light, even if that history has been twisted and skewed. 

I don't downplay their fight. Simply pointing out that it wasn't them that ultimately defeated them. 

Something that didn't require a political union between Scotland and England. 

I actually agree with you there. Imagine how awful things would still be today if we hadn't looked back and learned lessons from Britain's tyrannical history. 

OK, so you're obviously not going to either elaborate on our supposed tyrannical imperial roots, nor answer about your thoughts on our fight against slavery.

Everything I've spoken about has to do with Britain, and I was asked for positivity regarding the Union.  The Union is just the Country of Britain IMO.

You are indeed downplaying Britain's role in defeating the Nazis.  Why not own the fact that many of our forefathers died as part of our victory against that evil regime?  It's part of our history and changed the world for the better.  Can you actually say anything good about Britain at all?!

I never said the Magna Carta required a Union, but used it as an illustration as part of our history that I'm proud of.

[The_Kincardine]

3 hours ago, Theyellowbox said:

So what is the arguments FOR the union then? Not what Scotland cannot do, but why should we be in a union? 

GB is one nation as established in 1707.  If you want it partitioned it's up to you to justify it.  And you can't.  Even with the worst PM in my lifetime in WM the support for partition is dropping rapidly.

Those who support partition are a combo of blood and soil, "I'd eat grass rather than labour under the English yoke" xenophobes and shallow-minded idiots who believe their lies.  The latter is, thankfully, a declining number.

[Antlion]

2 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

GB is one nation as established in 1707.  If you want it partitioned it's up to you to justify it.  And you can't.  Even with the worst PM in my lifetime in WM the support for partition is dropping rapidly.

 

The UK is no stranger to partition; it was already partitioned up, by the UK. Support for that partitioning is, however, likely to decrease as the UK further breaks up. Extremist BritNat views like yours - about reuniting Ireland under the UK - are only likely to expedite a desire to put an end to the UK’s fetish for partition and reunite Ireland with the north.

[Theyellowbox]

1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said:

GB is one nation as established in 1707.  If you want it partitioned it's up to you to justify it.  And you can't.  Even with the worst PM in my lifetime in WM the support for partition is dropping rapidly.

Those who support partition are a combo of blood and soil, "I'd eat grass rather than labour under the English yoke" xenophobes and shallow-minded idiots who believe their lies.  The latter is, thankfully, a declining number.

Sigh, OK, if you want to get historical, Scotland as a nation has existed far longer as an independent country than in a Union. Being pedantic, but GB is just an island and not a nation. You're excluding all the Isles and NI.

My justification is that culturally, politically and socially we are moving in a different direction to rUK. Just look at the reactions to the pandemic as a recent example. We can still have close ties to rUK, but my opinion is that a more appropriate future for Scotland is one where we take full economic and social decisions ourselves. That may be exactly the same as rUK, but it would be our decisions to make.

No, we should not forget the shared history and maybe 20 years ago we were aligned enough to remain, but I cannot see a future where either Scotland and rUK move in the same direction in the union and the cracks will continue to grow.

I'm honest enough to admit that there would be risks and I'll never be 100% sure it is right, particularly the uncertainty around finances. But I'd at least be making a decision based on what I see in front of me, not one based on the football team I support, fear of change or some misty eyed view of a Britain that never existed and never will.....

[Scott Steiner]

5 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

Because maybe there is a better future out there. You can be both proud of the past and also optimistic for a different future. Do you honestly see anything in the future of this union that could even come close to the achievements you listed?

Out of interest are you 100% against the idea of independence or is there bits you would quite welcome?

I'm pro independence, but there would be bits of Britain I'd miss. I think anyone who is 100% either way is either a liar or a fool. 

Good point about being proud of the past but optimistic for a different future.  I suppose my counter to that would be that I don't want a different future in the same way most Yes voters would.  I believe in capitalism (although not unchecked free market) and have more in common with those 'awful' right-wingers that it's trendy to demonise on a regular basis.

I'd prefer to promote a culture of community/family reliance/pride and self-responsibility over always looking to the state.

The idea of a neo-liberal independent Scotland chills me to the bone.

To answer your question, there are definitely things that I think would happen as a result of Independence that I'd like.  I think there'd be land reform and the nationalisation of certain public services that I'd undoubtedly support.  Banks should be publicly owned, and I could see this happening in an Independent Scotland.

[The_Kincardine]

1 minute ago, CheeseBurger said:

What was our investment in empire before the "union"? 

Unless of course you're suggesting that Britain turned Scots into more vile people. 

Well the Darien fuckup, of course.  Then we used the common trading area established previously by England, expanded it massively and turned it in to a disproportionately Scottish empire.  

It's thanks to we Scots that slavery and exploitation was globalised.  We had jute produced by Scots-owned slave plantations in India being sent via Clyde-built ships to Dundee for processing then sent, from Glasgow, on Clyde-built ships to Scots-owned slave plantations in the Windies and The Carolinas as packing materials for cotton and tobacco to be sent back to Glasgow for finishing.  All financed by the likes of Coutts, Drummonds and the British Linen Bank.

We grew the raw materials, we ran the slaves, we built the transport, we produced the finished goods and we provided the finance.  There was nothing like Scotland's oxter-deep involvement in vertically-integrated slavery in any other western country.  This is before we start on our role in trying to convert the natives to Jesus, our position as governors and administrators in the colonies, and the over representation of our regiments in putting down the troublesome natives.

We even stole the marbles from the Parthenon.  Oh and stole tea plants from China to establish Scots-owned tea plantations in India to send black tea via Clyde-built ships like the Cutty Sark home to Britain.

If there's talk of "vile people" then it's 'us' rather than 'them'.

[Theyellowbox]

2 minutes ago, Scott Steiner said:

Good point about being proud of the past but optimistic for a different future.  I suppose my counter to that would be that I don't want a different future in the same way most Yes voters would.  I believe in capitalism (although not unchecked free market) and have more in common with those 'awful' right-wingers that it's trendy to demonise on a regular basis.

I'd prefer to promote a culture of community/family reliance/pride and self-responsibility over always looking to the state.

The idea of a neo-liberal independent Scotland chills me to the bone.

To answer your question, there are definitely things that I think would happen as a result of Independence that I'd like.  I think there'd be land reform and the nationalisation of certain public services that I'd undoubtedly support.  Banks should be publicly owned, and I could see this happening in an Independent Scotland.

And it is probably a good thing that in an independent Scotland there would be people with plenty of different views. For example, I think a Scottish Conservative party in an independent Scotland would sti be one of the largest parties. Conversely, I think the SNP would fade away. Its too broad a party to survive once its main unifier (ironically) is gone. What is forgotten is that despite a more recent history of SNP and Labour voting, Scotland us traditionally more (small c) Conservative than the rest of the UK. 

[git-intae-thum]

14 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

GB is one nation as established in 1707.  If you want it partitioned it's up to you to justify it.  And you can't.  Even with the worst PM in my lifetime in WM the support for partition is dropping rapidly.

Those who support partition are a combo of blood and soil, "I'd eat grass rather than labour under the English yoke" xenophobes and shallow-minded idiots who believe their lies.  The latter is, thankfully, a declining number.

Definition of "shallow minded idiot"

= Person who forms their opinion on a nations constitutional future based on "emotion, culture and history"........... and the football team they support.

 

[The_Kincardine]

17 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

Sigh, OK, if you want to get historical, Scotland as a nation has existed far longer as an independent country than in a Union. Being pedantic, but GB is just an island and not a nation. 

I stopped there.  In order to be a ScotchNat you have to lie to yourself and Lie 1 is, "GB is just an island".

As i have said many times, the less you know of Scotland and its history the more likely you are to be a ScotchNat.

[Clown Job]

Scotland doesn’t exist anymore 

Bold argument 

Happy to partition Ireland and create a sectarian state, but Scotland leaving the union is apparently a step too far 

You’re not a Brit, not really, you are and will always be seen as a jock to your fellow “countrymen”