Oor Nicola Sturgeon thread.

[GTee]

But maybe a Holyrood Tory party would be different to a Westminster (Eton type) Tory party. 

[GTee]

It couldn't be a Conservative and Unionist party for a start. 

[lichtgilphead]

4 minutes ago, GTee said:

But maybe a Holyrood Tory party would be different to a Westminster (Eton type) Tory party. 

I wouldn't vote for an old style 'one nation' conservative (note small 'c''), but they would be an improvement on the current Tory party

[Cheese]

[Monkey Tennis]

7 hours ago, Shipa said:

I think there's a bit of a flip-side to this, in that while these things can point to us being better - or at least no worse - off with independance, they play equally into the hands of the 'Now is not the time/get on with the day job' types.

Agreed.

A similar two edged thing happened round Brexit.

When it was first voted for in 2016, I thought it would be great for the independence cause, because we'd not voted for it and it was a material change to the circumstances voted on in 2014.  That was even before I could know what a protracted mess leaving the EU would be, or that we'd wind up with such a hard Brexit as we got, under such a bell-end as Johnson.  

The flip side that time, however, was that independence would result in the English border becoming much harder if we got back into the EU.  I think the messy nature of leaving Europe also made separation for us from the UK, look less attractive.

I think that the argument that there couldn't have been a better time to drive home independence has value.  It's also true though that the very same factors that 'should' have increased support, also served to dent it a bit.  Any gains seemed to be offset.

[Scary Bear]

1 hour ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

Were they, aye ?  That's not what they were saying the last time I was in Baghdad and Falluja. 

As for your suggested solution, how would anyone know the difference ?  And I'm being serious.

Aye, but Iraq isn’t part of these Islands. The UK was pretty good at that time.

[GTee]

Aye, but maybe they would be more 'votable' than the current version. 

I think promoting self governance as opposed to independence would be a better call.

Independence is being pushed as some sort of separation, which clearly isn't the case. 

Scotland is a country in its own right and should operate as one. What's the problem?

[Stephen Malkmus]

Virtually nothing could have happened in the last 8 years that would have resulted in a sustained majority for independence being built. Too many people are too set in their ways and only demographic change over time will alter that. Sturgeon was successful in that she maintained support for independence at slightly above its 2014 level - it was impossible to do much more than that. Even in the best case scenario of the new leader being extremely competent it'll take 20 years for enough of a demographic change to have occurred for the needle to move in a noticeable way.

The key thing for the SNP is getting new generations of younger voters on board which gets harder over time.

[Monkey Tennis]

On 15/02/2023 at 14:23, scottsdad said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/15/nicola-sturgeon-resigned-united-kingdom-survive-scottish-independence

Here you go!

 

In fairness, that's a perfectly sensible piece.

 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

2 hours ago, Glen Sannox said:

But I thought these “left leaning” types were all for rehabilitation and giving people a second chance.

I suppose the least surprising thing in this entire thread would be you trying to be an edgelord and go to bat for a rapist. As anyone knows, even abject simpletons, rehabilitation usually comes after someone admits and recognises their wrongdoings. Goodwillie of course has done nothing of the sort. 

 

30 minutes ago, GTee said:

But maybe a Holyrood Tory party would be different to a Westminster (Eton type) Tory party. 

Nah, they'd still be absolute vermin.

[sparky88]

52 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Perhaps, but I cannot imagine a independent Scotland's electorate ever electing a government standing on the current Conservative manifesto or anything even remotely similar

Its very difficult to divvy up the SNP vote on  a socioeconomic basis. I suspect there's far more right leaning votes for the SNP than many think and a centre right govt will be in power soon after independence. 

The No voters will still be voting, after all. 

[GTee]

Is it coming down to demographics? Set a referendum for 2034. Lots of things could happen between now and then. Who would have predicted a pandemic. Reckon it would be a YES vote by then. I could be around for it.

 

 

[lichtgilphead]

15 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

Its very difficult to divvy up the SNP vote on  a socioeconomic basis. I suspect there's far more right leaning votes for the SNP than many think and a centre right govt will be in power soon after independence. 

The No voters will still be voting, after all. 

The no voters will not all vote for right leaning parties, and the right-leaning snp voters will be unlikely to vote for anything as far-right as the current Tory party.

As long as we avoid the extremes of FPTP, I think post-indy Scotland will be ok

[GTee]

Maybe No voters on here could say why they are No voters?

Don't recognise Scotland is a country in its own right. 

Prefer to be governed by a larger neighbouring country.

Didn't like Salmond.

Didn't like Sturgeon.

Other reasons.

?

 

 

[git-intae-thum]

Thanks to Nicola for just over 8 years of mostly competent leadership of our nation. Longest serving first minister. Accomplished devolutionist and election winner. The annals will record a premiership rating of probably around joint 3rd equal with Henry McLeish in terms of devolved parliament first ministerial greatness.

She is a proven election winner and beyond doubt, the eminent political communicator on this island.

It could have been so much better though.

Nothing in this country is going to improve until we have all decisions about Scotland, made in Scotland, for the benefit of the people of Scotland.

We are no closer to independence than we were on the 19th September 2014.

 

 

 

[Pocketman]

1 hour ago, GTee said:

Maybe No voters on here could say why they are No voters?

Don't recognise Scotland is a country in its own right. 

Prefer to be governed by a larger neighbouring country.

Didn't like Salmond.

Didn't like Sturgeon.

Other reasons.

?

I would suggest that many "no" voters see their country as the UK, have an attachment to the UK, are happy/proud to be British and all that entails, and enjoy the comfort and "security" of the status quo. For some, on top of that or separately they do not think that Scotland has the ability to be independent in terms of resources or in terns of political leadership or talent. I think any of these reasons are perfectly valid whether you agree with them or not. 

The reasons you give tend to be the main reasons set out by for those who have flags and "love my kids and the Rangers" in their twitter profiles. 

[Pocketman]

Simon Jenkins, your English pundit there guesting as a panelist at a Scottish international or cup game, having only had a diet solely of English football or CL games involving English teams. He tells us that Callum McGregor does that "week in and week out" without the merest hint of embarrassment and self awareness:

There is a path to Scottish independence. Sturgeon was brilliant, but she just couldn’t see it

Simon Jenkins

 

[Pocketman]

2 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

Simon Jenkins, your English pundit there guesting as a panelist at a Scottish international or cup game, having only had a diet solely of English football or CL games involving English teams. He tells us that Callum McGregor does that "week in and week out" without the merest hint of embarrassment and self awareness:

There is a path to Scottish independence. Sturgeon was brilliant, but she just couldn’t see it

Simon Jenkins

 

and only takes him to his second para to give us his insightful fresh laser sharp Westminster-centric analysis of the problem with NS:

All Sturgeon could do was plunge an ever more visceral anti-Englishness into courtroom battles with London that she was never likely to win.

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by KingRocketman II

[Monkey Tennis]

4 hours ago, sparky88 said:

 a centre right govt will be in power soon after independence. 

I think there's virtually no evidence in support of this claim.

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, GTee said:

Maybe No voters on here could say why they are No voters?

Don't recognise Scotland is a country in its own right. 

Prefer to be governed by a larger neighbouring country.

Didn't like Salmond.

Didn't like Sturgeon.

Other reasons.

?

Let this Yes voter try.

Some would feel an attachment to the UK.  Many will feel very much Scottish, but have no great desire for separation from a larger country.

Many would have cold feet regarding what such a large departure might mean economically, given that the question of currency was never really convincingly sorted.

 

I voted Yes because I don't want to ever be governed by the Tory party (especially in its latest iterations) and this is our best route to achieving that.  I don't think that voting No is as insane a position as you wish to imply though.