renton Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said: Thank f**k, in WM, we have neither 'Scottish votes' nor 'English votes' but each constituency - from Thurso to Truro - votes for which person - irrespective of party - they want to represent them in parliament. Neither Scotland nor England are cultural, social or political homogeneities- which is the massive flaw in Nationalist rhetoric. 1. Party politics does exist, demogrpahic biases too and therefore romantic rhetoric about voting for the person is largely irrelevant. FPTP should have died along time ago. With PR there is far more honesty about how the electoral system actually works. You can't vote for 'the person' at constituency level, then in the next breath declare that a new PM has a mandate based on the electorate voting for the party. 2. Nations are shared fictions that exist in people's minds. There only has to be a shared sense of community to give rise to one, and the real mechanical state, the political and bearucratic machine develops from that. No one said it had to be homogeneous. Hell, you could argue it the other way and demand to know why there isn't just one Scandinavian nation instead of having Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Countries with far more historical political ties then on these benighted islands. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scary Bear Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, EvilScotsman said: It doesn't. It won't. Scottish votes have decided precisely one general election since the second world war. In every single other one the governing party has been the one which won the most English costituencies. On that basis, there’s no point voting for anyone in a UK General Election. That’s a bit deflating. What’s the point of anything? Edited February 17, 2023 by Scary Bear 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, Wingman said: I think Brexit was the same. Nothing to do with trade and taxes but all to do with sovereignty and belonging. At least with Brexit we had a different language, history and background to our European neighbours which gave the project some logic. Some logic but not that much. Interesting that the language of Scexit mirrors that of Brexit. Not surprising, really, since both groups are border-builders. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 5 hours ago, scottsdad said: 4 posts in, and not even subtle. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scary Bear Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 minute ago, DA Baracus said: I think what had changed is the vote is for a cause rather than a party. If there were perhaps another viable way of showing support for independence then perhaps the SNP wouldn't get as many votes. As someone else mentioned, that’s maybe not a good thing, constantly voting for a party for the promise of another vote on independence at some time in the future, if others - with a vested interest not to allow it - allow it. Meanwhile key public services and infrastructure start to decline, but the other parties in Holyrood are equally bad or worse and they don’t even offer the carrot of independence, so the SNP keep getting elected no matter how they perform. That’s not a good situation for Scotland. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 4 minutes ago, renton said: Why there isn't just one Scandinavian nation instead of having Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Countries with far more historical political ties then on these benighted islands. We've been one nation-state for over 315 years - cemented by an act of union that ticks all of the boxes of international law. During that time it's fair to say that the Scots tail has wagged the English dog in many aspects of Britain's history - in industry, commerce and politics. That you think Denmark has "far more historical political ties" with Norway than we have with England is bizarre. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyM Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 19 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said: We've been one nation-state for over 315 years - cemented by an act of union that ticks all of the boxes of international law. During that time it's fair to say that the Scots tail has wagged the English dog in many aspects of Britain's history - in industry, commerce and politics. That you think Denmark has "far more historical political ties" with Norway than we have with England is bizarre. Having lived in Scandanavia as a boy (Bergen, Norway & Malmo, Sweden) I can tell you that Norway's deeper historical ties are with Sweden, not Denmark. They were one country on three occasions the last being from 1814-1905. And Swedish Norwegian ties are extremely deep. The countries generally rub along and share a common history, culture and a geography. Their land border is much larger than ours with England. The odd hammerhead (usually fuelled on too much Tuborg) aside the people generally get along with each other and consider them selves brothers and sisters. The parallels between Scotland and England are there for those who care to look. Many work in each others country and they are not considered immigrants. Social attitudes are interesting. The Swedes are often justifiably accused of being patronising to Norwegians who they see as yokels. The Norwegians see the Swedes as money and business obsessed. Swedes dress well, Norwegians look like they've been fishing. But there s absolutely no desire to reform under a single political entity a la 1814. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 4 minutes ago, AndyM said: The parallels between Scotland and England are there for those who care to look. Many work in each others country and they are not considered immigrants. They are not, by any measure. Scotland and England share a common language, culture and, from 1560, history. Oh, and exist on one island. Scotland's king became England's king in 1603 and we shared a joint monarch until we became one nation in 1707. Politically, socially and culturally you can barely get the gable end of a Rizla between Scotland and England. The statement, "Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Countries with far more historical political ties then on these benighted islands." is the most imbecilic I have ever read on P&B and I've been posting here for ages. Sad that you're trying to back it up. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said: The statement, "Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Countries with far more historical political ties then on these benighted islands." is the most imbecilic I have ever read on P&B and I've been posting here for ages. Sad that you're trying to back it up. I think you topped that when you started claiming to want the Irish forcibly repatriated under UK rule - like an absolute lunatic. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Blades Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, welshbairn said: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, The_Kincardine said: Neither Scotland nor England are cultural, social or political homogeneities- which is the massive flaw in Nationalist rhetoric. Not this rubbish again. There's not a nation anywhere that can realistically be seen as a homogeneity. Your point is quite without one. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: Not this rubbish again. If Scotland isn't a social, political or cultural homogeneity then independence has nothing. There is heehaw to distinguish those above the border from those below., 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 (edited) 16 hours ago, The_Kincardine said: If Scotland isn't a social, political or cultural homogeneity then independence has nothing. There is heehaw to distinguish those above the border from those below., I don't think that's true, but even if it was, it wouldn't trouble me. I'd want the bit of the island I come from and live in to detach from the rest anyway, because I reject the prevailing politics over the last 4 decades in the bigger part. My Scottish nationalism, such as it is, is based on expediency. Edited February 18, 2023 by Monkey Tennis 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 6 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said: There is heehaw to distinguish those above the border from those below., We haven't voted Tory since the 1950's for one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: I don't think that's true, but even if it was, it wouldn't trouble me. I'd want the bit of the island I come from and live in to detach from the rest anyway, because I reject the prevailing politics over the last 4 decades in the the bigger part. My Scottish nationalism, such as it is, is based on expediency. As is mine. I'm politically a federalist but Brexit put an end to that. The final nail was working class racists voting for the Tory vermin at Westminster - it convinced me that England is on a path I don't want to journey on. Edited February 17, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: I don't think that's true, but even if it was, it wouldn't trouble me. I'd want the bit of the island I come from and live in to detach from the rest anyway, because I reject the prevailing politics over the last 4 decades in the the bigger part. The past 4 decades that have seen Scots driving the political agenda of 'this island'? 3 minutes ago, welshbairn said: We haven't voted Tory since the 1950's for one. 'We' never vote Tory. It's a feature of our electoral system. -4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 41 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said: Scotland and England share a common language, culture and, from 1560, history. Can someone please deport this staunchest of jakeys to the Union Bears forum? TIA. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, virginton said: Can someone please deport this staunchest of jakeys to the Union Bears forum? TIA. Usual dreck from you. What's your problem with me mentioning our cooperation with England in 1560? -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Just now, The_Kincardine said: The past 4 decades that have seen Scots driving the political agenda of 'this island'? 'We' never vote Tory. It's a feature of our electoral system. Scotland drove Brexit? That’s some take. But of course someone’s birthplace is no indicator of their interest in that birthplace (except of course to ethno-nationalists like you and your fellow alt-right Brexit Britons). I’d rather an English or Swedish or Peruvian leader of an independent Scotland, responsible only for Scotland’s welfare and answerable to the Scottish electorate than a Scottish-born freakshow like Gordon Brown, who gives not a single shiny shit about Scotland and could barely manage the UK. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said: Usual dreck from you. What's your problem with me mentioning our cooperation with England in 1560? Is that when the local barman knew you wanted 1664 even though you got the name wrong? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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