Too thick to win

[ICTChris]

A friend of mine shared this article arguing that one of the reason that England teams have failed in the past is that the players aren't clever enough to adapt tactically and that there is a culture of anti-intellectualism within English football that is to the detriment of the players and the team.  There's a section in 'Why England Lose' that makes a similar argument.

Here's the article,

http://www.football365.com/news/a-little-more-education-a-little-less-british-brutishness

which is a follow up to this article

http://www.football365.com/news/are-england-too-thick-to-win-anything

 

Do people think this is true?  Is it just lazy elitism about working class footballers being thickos?  How much of this theory applies to Scottish football?

Have any P&Bers ever gone to a Monet exhibition thinking it was going to be a load of banknotes on display?

[Southside Hibee]

When we have British former football player pundits  like Paul Merson, Kris Boyd & Charlie Nicholas etc, I think that answers what the standard of British football players intelligence is.

[KnightswoodBear]

Very good articles, but i don't think it's a new phenomenon.  I'm sure there's a tale of Pat Nevin having the pish ripped out him for having the temerity to read a book on the Chelsea team bus.  Going back even further, you've got the old Monty Python "I 'it the ball and it flew into the back of the net!" sketch.

[The Mantis]

Even further back and Hunter Davies' book 'The Glory Game' from 1972 when he spent a season with Tottenham. The players came across as very vacuous, not interested in anything outside of football. They all voted Tory too, although they didn't think why, it was just a cultural thing. TBF I'd like to think that players are a bit more broad-minded nowadays.

[sjc]

Given that Harry Kane asked the Ref at the end of the Iceland game in the Euros if "that ment England were out", I'd say yes.

[sjc]

1 minute ago, Melanius Mullarkey said:

Seriously?

According to one of the Icelandic players he did. I could believe it tbh.

[Dindeleux]

It's pretty obvious to everyone who has ever heard him speak that Kane was blessed with football ability that balanced out some of the normal abilities most people have that he is lacking.

 

ETA - Could be wrong I'm basing this solely on how he sounds.

[sjc]

Scottish players are just too shit to win. 

[KnightswoodBear]

3 minutes ago, Dindeleux said:

It's pretty obvious to everyone who has ever heard him speak that Kane was blessed with football ability that balanced out some of the normal abilities most people have that he is lacking.

 

ETA - Could be wrong I'm basing this solely on how he sounds.

The difficulty with Kane is that on top of being as thick as shit (I assume), he also sounds like he's got some kind of speech impediment, so it's a double dunt for him.

[Miguel Sanchez]

Harry Kane looks and sounds as if he's melting.

[sjc]

He's got an oversized tongue just like Jamie Oliver.

[Ross.]

Not read the two links yet, but in the book you mentioned(Why England Lose) did they not conclude that by and large, footballers everywhere were generally thick as shit which meant it was not really an excuse that England could use?

[Shandon Par]

It's a vicious circle as the coaches have come through the same system so criticism is met with total meltdown.

This sort of stuff sums up the difference for me. A successful football nation views intelligence and education as vital. We don't. We're shite. They're not:

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/may/23/germany-bust-boom-talent

 

Freiburg place great emphasis on academic work, so much so that they like a selection of their staff to come from a teaching background, so that they can provide educational help whenever it is needed, including on the way to matches. It is not uncommon for players to do homework on the coach. Streich says that clubs have a moral obligation to think about what happens to those who fail to make the grade.

"When I went to Aston Villa eight years ago I told them our players, under-17, 18 and 19, go to school for 34 hours a week," he says. "They said: 'No, you're a liar, it's not possible, our players go for nine hours.' I said: 'No, I'm not lying.' They said: 'It's not possible, you can't train and do 34 hours of education.' I said: 'Sure. And what do you do with the players who have for three years, from the age of 16 to 19, only had nine hours a week of school?

"They said: 'They have to try to be a professional or not. They have to decide.' I said: 'No, we can't do that in Freiburg. It's wrong. Most players in our academy can't be professionals, they will have to look for a job. The school is the most important thing, then comes football.' We give players the best chance to be a footballer but we give them two educations here. If 80% can't go on to play in the professional team, we have to look out for them. The players that play here, the majority of them go on to higher education. And we need intelligent players on the pitch anyway."

[tamthebam]

perhaps the reason Engerlund lose is that they think they're better than they actually are.

see also: Brexit.

[ICTChris]

I don't think that you need a team of brain surgeons but I think that English (and Scottish as well tbh) players don't seem to be encouraged to think about the game in depth and the emphasis is still (STILL) about putting in tackles, being dynamic and having an impact with little regard for tactical adjustments and understanding football.

this bit

Quote

He pointed out that this was a self-perpetuating condition because anyone with any intellect or sensitivity would likely have drifted out of the game quite early, feeling like it was “a culturally hostile place and they don’t want to put up with bullies and idiots who think humiliating practical jokes are funny; that sort of thing. We seem to specialise in producing grown men who often behave like silly boys well into their late 20s. When you come into it from the ‘real’ world, it still feels quite like school, with a player hiding another’s shoes, or putting dog muck in his sock; that sort of thing.”

I've often thought that all the 'dressing room banter' stuff is really cringeworthy and pathetic.  These are grown men and, as above, they are behaving like children.  The story a few years ago about Stoke players putting a pigs head in someone's locker for a joke is a good example.  There are examples in Scotland as well - the all-time classic Cowboy McCormack unfair dismissal case for example.

It also feeds into a destructive 'old school' attitude that we see referenced sometimes - the allegations about Jimmy Calderwood bullying and freezing out a player who had mental health problems or Barry Ferguson and Kris Boyd revolting against a manager who wanted to ban monster Munch.

[Sloop John B]

I don't necessarily know if it's a big factor, Harry Kane is a literal mouth breather in the real world but in a footballing intelligence sense you don't score however many he has by accident. He's an empty vessel that can only absorb information about football.

I always think it comes back to the classic notions of English football culture, where the star player is expected to carry the team, which for media narrative is always a working class lad come good á la Gerrard or Gascoigne even though most people don't consider themselves to be. It's partly why Wayne Rooney was a lot more popular than Frank Lampard, despite being unable to speak English and looking like a melted candle. It fits into empty narratives about heart and desire and wanting it more than everyone else rather than boring things like preparation and tactical discussion.

The problem with the England team is that they tend to all be big stars so they don't really know how to share the attention or take a backseat. They all want to be the man and can't ever play like a team regardless of who is playing. Playing Scholes out wide in favour of Lampard and Gerrard and the sudden shock in the 2006 World Cup that Bayern Munich's Owen Hargreaves was actually not that bad are just examples of the golden generation just being wasted because the coaching, media et al were just clueless.

[forameus]

Although this thread is concentrated on England, are most footballers not pretty thick anyway?  I know there are exceptions to the rule, obviously there are, but I'd imagine the vast majority are particularly stupid individuals.  Not exactly a huge leap either - a lot of them will be told from a young age that they can possibly make it, and if you're really driven to do that then you're unlikely to care too much about studying.  

I don't think it follows that if you're thick, you're automatically not going to be able to pick up footballing concepts.  There will be football geniuses who will be painfully stupid just like there will be general geniuses who don't have footballing intelligence.  It can't help, but it's not the main issue I don't think.

Kind of on this note, it reminds me of a story on the Football Ramble about player liason officers.  A fancy title, but they're essentially just there to make sure the players don't wander into traffic, but also that they never learn why you shouldn't.  I forget the exact players, but some asked these people for help because their goldfish was swimming in the wrong direction, and, most oddly, that the player was waking up every morning with a wet head.  After a long investigation, it was discovered that he was sleeping with the window open.  I know it's probably at least partially made up, but jeezo...

[ICTChris]

16 minutes ago, Sloop John B said:

I don't necessarily know if it's a big factor, Harry Kane is a literal mouth breather in the real world but in a footballing intelligence sense you don't score however many he has by accident. He's an empty vessel that can only absorb information about football.

I always think it comes back to the classic notions of English football culture, where the star player is expected to carry the team, which for media narrative is always a working class lad come good á la Gerrard or Gascoigne even though most people don't consider themselves to be. It's partly why Wayne Rooney was a lot more popular than Frank Lampard, despite being unable to speak English and looking like a melted candle. It fits into empty narratives about heart and desire and wanting it more than everyone else rather than boring things like preparation and tactical discussion.

The problem with the England team is that they tend to all be big stars so they don't really know how to share the attention or take a backseat. They all want to be the man and can't ever play like a team regardless of who is playing. Playing Scholes out wide in favour of Lampard and Gerrard and the sudden shock in the 2006 World Cup that Bayern Munich's Owen Hargreaves was actually not that bad are just examples of the golden generation just being wasted because the coaching, media et al were just clueless.

That's a good point - a lot of the football media is based around finding a 'Captain Fantastic' who will rip off the shirt to reveal a superhero costume, score last minute winners and generally be a Boys Own/Roy of the Rovers style hero.  All very good but not what's required to succeed in modern football - i.e. tactical nuance, keeping possession of the ball.

[ICTChris]

8 minutes ago, forameus said:

Kind of on this note, it reminds me of a story on the Football Ramble about player liason officers.  A fancy title, but they're essentially just there to make sure the players don't wander into traffic, but also that they never learn why you shouldn't.  I forget the exact players, but some asked these people for help because their goldfish was swimming in the wrong direction, and, most oddly, that the player was waking up every morning with a wet head.  After a long investigation, it was discovered that he was sleeping with the window open.  I know it's probably at least partially made up, but jeezo...

There is a discussion on that in Why England Lose as well - clubs employ staff to make sure that players can get settled if they move, help them get their kids sorted, get a decent school.  If you are a multi-million pound business and are paying someone tens of thousands a week it doesn't take much to help them out getting a flat.  I've never relocated for work but have colleagues who did and the company helped them find places, at least temporarily.

[The Nightfly]

It's pretty obvious to everyone who has ever heard him speak that Kane was blessed with football ability that balanced out some of the normal abilities most people have that he is lacking.
 
ETA - Could be wrong I'm basing this solely on how he sounds.

He has a lisp. Nothing to do with intelligence, in the same way that stammering does not reflect mental ability.
There are other players who sounds a bit uneducated e.g. Dennis Wise, John Terry & Barry Ferguson.