Junior football, what is the future?

[SimonLichtie]

5 hours ago, GordonS said:

Because apart from Ayr and Raith Rovers, there's practically nothing to pick between the 18 other teams and the next 50 best non-league clubs. 

I've read some astounding comments from junior fans over the past week or two, but this tops the rest by a long, long way.

The sheer delusion is jaw dropping.

A lot of the arguments here are so akin to the 'Colt teams in League 2' arguments. Yet again you have some people on one side who will argue their case regardless of having no factual information to back themselves up, and a whole load of factual information going against them. Some people just don't deal in logic/ reason/ fact and form their opinion and stubbornly refuse to change it regardless of any change/ time that passes.

I think the majority would agree that any junior club who wants to continue playing junior, and wants to continue playing in regional leagues should certainly be allowed to do so. Ideally that would be at a tier 7 and below in a full national pyramid setup. Teams could easily refuse promotion to tier 6 and continue to be the top team at that level in their region if they wish to do so. However, some of the hilariously stupid comments being made regarding the SPFL, the standard of football the size of crowds and the funding involved etc. are hilarious to read. Crowds and funding to SPFL clubs etc. are public information, it is factual information and the amount of people I've seen who are arguing black is white essentially is quite bizarre.

Also, I know it's not factual and cannot be proven, but f**k me trying to say there is nothing to pick between clubs like Arbroath, Alloa, East Fife and second tier junior teams is fucking hilarious. There is absolutely no comparison between any SPFL League 1 club and any second tier junior team. In terms of facilities, money, crowds, standard of football any comparison being made is utterly delusional.

[CM.]

5 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Who mentioned one-off cup ties?

 

6 hours ago, GordonS said:

I saw Bo'ness give Queens Park an absolute chasing. If you think those Queens Park players weren't giving it their all, you're very much mistaken. 

 

Wasn't implying that you mentioned it.

Edited April 2, 2018 by C. Muir

[Robert James]

3 minutes ago, andy25 said:

Think you are getting me mixed up with someone else. I haven't commented much and have stopped reading it as I can't be bothered reading much more about it and it's Auchinleck by the way.

With apologies, if I clicked on the wrong post. Just frustration on my part about the continual junior v senior "diatribe", when there is so much to be debated about the changes that are taking place, and will continue over the next few years.

[cmontheloknow]

Just now, JakeSAFC said:

 

But they are to a much higher standard. Crowds aside, going by what you've told me, they play in a superior level of football. Even if relegated they'll still be at a higher standard.

Hampden isn't everyone's cup of tea, but again its a much better stadium overall than Polloks ground.

Queens Parks playing squad will be much better than Polloks.

So, overall, Queens Park are a much better standard than Pollok.

You have no evidence that the playing squad is 'much better'. I'm not going to go down the line of critiquing the squads in detail as it's a very subjective thing to do and making sweeping statements about the relative qualities of both is pointless. Having seen both sides though, there are only a few (not none) I'd be swapping though the make-up of both squads is uniquely determined - QP by who wants to play amateur in a league that has a healthy going rate for part-time players, and Lok by being able to attract players for good money (about £80-£100 a week seems to be going rate in our league but I have no knowledge of accurate Lok figures) who perhaps don't want to play at the higher national level but are good enough to be part of a dominant side in the Juniors.

The Hampden experience is very different to Newlandsfield. Yeah it's nice to sit in a comfy leather seat at Hampden for a QP game, but there is zero atmosphere. Not sure I'd go back or not. Newlandsfield (on its day) is regarded as one of the best grounds to watch a game in the country with a great buzz under the shed (again on the right day). Yes it lacks many things but there are concrete plans to improve the supporter facilities.

I do not for one second argue that the Juniors (any of them) are a higher level than any SPFL 1/2 side but that does not make every one of those 20 sides automatically superior on-field purely based on the division they play in. You cannot drop to our level and we cannot rise to yours, therefore there is no watertight means of proving where the overap is, if there is one.

[cmontheloknow]

14 minutes ago, C. Muir said:

 

 

Wasn't implying that you mentioned it.

Aye but you were responding to a response to me!

[1320Lichtie]

In this day and age there’s plenty of highlights and footage available online too. I’m a sucker for a good highlights package and regularly watch ones on YouTube by the guy that does Fitba Shorts, also love a Bonnyrigg highlights package and anything involving Lochee United. The one just the other week v Beith was a belter. Some really entertaining stuff. But it’s nowhere near league football in terms of the grounds, football and crowds.

You get a Bo’ness or a Linlithgow or whoever and get them into the league, charging a higher admission cost, I’m sure their crowds would increase.

National coverage every single match day, live scores on radio/TV, fixture lists, bigger clubs as opposition, new teams visiting and new teams to visit, even shitey things like second by second updates on bet 365 or whatever. Just all round more exposure for the town and team.

A good run could see you end up doing a Brechin and having clubs like Dundee United visit. League and Scottish Cup every season guaranteeing big clubs visiting.

It could be a whole new experience for fans of some clubs, what are some of them afraid of?

[energyzone]

The opposite, you join the pyramid to test yourselves against the biggest clubs you can and grow your club to be as big as they can, winning bigger trophies in the process. 
Which makes your clubs decision to be the biggest diddys in the juniors pretty hilarious. 

It doesn't really. Talbot at best could be a SPFL 1 or 2 side. They simply don't have the population base to get higher than this. I'm not really seeing where these bigger trophies are. When was the last time one of the current SPFL 1 or 2 sides won one of the major competitions?

[andy25]

You have no evidence that the playing squad is 'much better'. I'm not going to go down the line of critiquing the squads in detail as it's a very subjective thing to do and making sweeping statements about the relative qualities of both is pointless. Having seen both sides though, there are only a few (not none) I'd be swapping though the make-up of both squads is uniquely determined - QP by who wants to play amateur in a league that has a healthy going rate for part-time players, and Lok by being able to attract players for good money (about £80-£100 a week seems to be going rate in our league but I have no knowledge of accurate Lok figures) who perhaps don't want to play at the higher national level but are good enough to be part of a dominant side in the Juniors.
The Hampden experience is very different to Newlandsfield. Yeah it's nice to sit in a comfy leather seat at Hampden for a QP game, but there is zero atmosphere. Not sure I'd go back or not. Newlandsfield (on its day) is regarded as one of the best grounds to watch a game in the country with a great buzz under the shed (again on the right day). Yes it lacks many things but there are concrete plans to improve the supporter facilities.
I do not for one second argue that the Juniors (any of them) are a higher level than any SPFL 1/2 side but that does not make every one of those 20 sides automatically superior on-field purely based on the division they play in. You cannot drop to our level and we cannot rise to yours, therefore there is no watertight means of proving where the overap is, if there is one.

When were Pollok last a dominant side in the juniors?
And if you think Pollok are only paying £80 to £100 a week to players ????

[cmontheloknow]

League titles in L1/2 are worth far more than any Junior league title.

[cmontheloknow]

4 minutes ago, andy25 said:

When were Pollok last a dominant side in the juniors?
And if you think Pollok are only paying £80 to £100 a week to players

Didn't say either of those things. I said Lok needed to sign players good enough to be part of a dominant side at this level. Whether the side built then dominates is at the mercy of the fates that dictates any team's season. TM has assembled the current side for next season. I'd say Lok last dominated mid 00s and things went badly wrong under Willie Irvine.

I do believe I said I did not know what Lok are paying and I'm sure it is higher than the going rate.

[andy25]

A lot higher!

[drs]

21 minutes ago, energyzone said:

When was the last time one of the current SPFL 1 or 2 sides won one of the major competitions?
 

1994

[1320Lichtie]

It doesn't really. Talbot at best could be a SPFL 1 or 2 side. They simply don't have the population base to get higher than this. I'm not really seeing where these bigger trophies are. When was the last time one of the current SPFL 1 or 2 sides won one of the major competitions?

Again this argument is basically like saying a team not winning at a higher level should drop down to a lower level so they could win lesser trophies? Should we have just refused promotion last season so we could win league 2 again or?

It’s absolutely bizarre to me.

[Burnie_man]

These debates have been going on for years. I guess in a decade or so's time when everyone is in the Pyramid and it has settled down, we'll see who had progressed and who hasn't.  Until then, arguing over who is better is a bit pointless.

[afca32]

7 hours ago, GordonS said:

Unless your club have made some serious improvements in the last three years, Linlithgow Rose's toilets are better than Elgin's.

Yeah they were done up this summer.

[energyzone]

Again this argument is basically like saying a team not winning at a higher level should drop down to a lower level so they could win lesser trophies? Should we have just refused promotion last season so we could win league 2 again or?

It’s absolutely bizarre to me.

No, the argument is about what is good for certain clubs and what isn't. What Arbroath fans like isn't necessarily what Talbot fans like.

You like where Arbroath are because it's all you've ever known. But going between League 1 & 2, playing in a national league and the occasional foray into rounds 4 or 5 of the Scottish Cup might suit you, but it doesn't sound attractive to a lot of others.

You don't seem to be able to understand this. Different people have different tastes - and that's actually ok. You seem to look upon those who don't share your views with ridicule. And if you don't then that's how it looks.

[LongTimeLurker]

14 hours ago, Dipple burn said:

As a matter of interest what is the financial benefit if say Talbot reach the LL. I only ask because if the club did reach these heights then no doubt a better class of player would need purchased so putting financial strain on a club who outwith fundraising and sponsorship has no other income.  Sponsorship in our area is hard to come by as you could be up against seven other clubs looking to attract the same sponsorship.

As a licensed club in the LL entering the Scottish Cup automatically you would have been looking at around 15K this season fom the SFA minimum from what I understand. Make it to midtable SPFL L2 and the various handouts probably total 60K or so. Good runs in the Scottish or League Cups make large financial windfalls like the one you would have got from the Tynecastle game possible as well.

[1320Lichtie]

No, the argument is about what is good for certain clubs and what isn't. What Arbroath fans like isn't necessarily what Talbot fans like.

You like where Arbroath are because it's all you've ever known. But going between League 1 & 2, playing in a national league and the occasional foray into rounds 4 or 5 of the Scottish Cup might suit you, but it doesn't sound attractive to a lot of others.

You don't seem to be able to understand this. Different people have different tastes - and that's actually ok. You seem to look upon those who don't share your views with ridicule. And if you don't then that's how it looks.

I’m not ridiculing anyone.

And it seems like it sounds attractive to the majority of junior clubs now, you can either stay where you are or get on board. Upto yourselves.

[Cyclizine]

No, the argument is about what is good for certain clubs and what isn't. What Arbroath fans like isn't necessarily what Talbot fans like.

You like where Arbroath are because it's all you've ever known. But going between League 1 & 2, playing in a national league and the occasional foray into rounds 4 or 5 of the Scottish Cup might suit you, but it doesn't sound attractive to a lot of others.

You don't seem to be able to understand this. Different people have different tastes - and that's actually ok. You seem to look upon those who don't share your views with ridicule. And if you don't then that's how it looks.

But there are teams in the juniors that may feel challenging in League 1 or 2, having a cup run in the Scottish Cup, League Cup or Challenge Cup is attractive to them. Denying other clubs the ability to do that isn't right.

A club that disagrees should do what they feel is best for them, that is entirely acceptable. What is unacceptable is blocking the ability of other teams to have a go at a higher level.

No-one should force the likes of Talbot to step up to play outwith Ayrshire or the West, but the potential to do that should be there.

Back in the day, I never thought County would be playing in the Premiership. The promotion season was a fantastic time, the year before a run to the cup final beating Celtic along the way, a League Cup victory. This season we're struggling - but I'm delighted we played at the top level for as long as we did. If we are relegated then I'd hope we could challenge again for promotion.

[Blackie Gold]

20 minutes ago, energyzone said:

No, the argument is about what is good for certain clubs and what isn't. What Arbroath fans like isn't necessarily what Talbot fans like.

You like where Arbroath are because it's all you've ever known. But going between League 1 & 2, playing in a national league and the occasional foray into rounds 4 or 5 of the Scottish Cup might suit you, but it doesn't sound attractive to a lot of others.

You don't seem to be able to understand this. Different people have different tastes - and that's actually ok. You seem to look upon those who don't share your views with ridicule. And if you don't then that's how it looks.

M8 you hit this debate right on the head. Thanks for that.