Junior football, what is the future?

[Slaverysam]

Nobody anywhere put a gun to any junior clubs head, they've done what they have through their own volition. Play football in a forward thinking progressive organisation of stick in the 1930's.......tough one that

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, shuggie123 said:

Yes, they are and is quite noticable at my own club. Do you think kicking around at level 6 or 7 will entice them back?

The only likely bump in attendance that Camelon would get is if they were to start challenging for the East Superleague. Since they haven't really been doing that of late, it would probably require the committee to run the club like a money pit.

SFA Pyramid might be a better chance for them to win back some support longer term compared to the financial black hole. Get into the EoS Premier as a mid level club against all their other traditional Superleague competition. Everything stays the same.

Then the repeat Superleague champions of the past get promoted and Camelon are suddenly in the spot of being a EoS Premier title challenger. Title challenge brings a wee bump in attendances, promotion brings a wee bump in attendances, battle relegation might bring a wee bump in attendances.

Staying as a perpetual mid level Superleague club wouldn't change anything and the gradual decline continues.

 

[AlanCamelonfan]

3 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I can give you another 10 very mediocre teams if you like.  Whoever ends up in their group it will be a weaker set of clubs than they currently play.

As I've said look at Dunipace. These clubs will improve  that were at deaths door in juniors. Camelon crowd be exact same and if the league is either of the two forecasted less travel. In one Coldstream and the other is st andrews the rest in both versions were Fife or Lothian clubs whough they' face anyway

[stanley]

38 minutes ago, naetshirt said:

I'm hearing "play in big cup" "get more money" "improve grounds" etc! What about standard of football! I have watched both SJFA and EOSL matches last season and know exactly where my money will be spent next year. Best value by far is SJFA Scottish ties and selected league and local cups.

24/60 east juniors are moving to the EoS.  That includes the "big three" (assuming Linlithgow vote to leave).  There will only be 36 east juniors left next season.  What makes you think the east juniors will be a better quality than the EoS next season?

I don't know how people can keep using the quality of football argument as a defence of the juniors when a huge number of East juniors and many of the best clubs are about to leave.

[LongTimeLurker]

33 minutes ago, ShrimpLok said:

...If I were involved with Tayport I’d be lobbying the PWG to move the LL boundary so that you can remain in the same setup as the Angus clubs in any future change. Perhaps there could be a hostage swap to let Luncarty stay with the Perth teams.

Don't think the boundary necessarily needs to be moved, all they really need to do is give clubs that are in easy walking distance of the boundary line and can be viewed as catering to a catchment area that straddles the line a choice based on local circumstances.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, cmontheloknow said:

Will you be kicking the Scottish AFA Cup winners out too? And what about the EoS and SoS clubs not (seemingly?) interested in getting licensed (such as Eyemouth?). If Eyemouth were to win the EoS or the East/South Shield, they'd be getting a cup place. You're only in the pyramid by quirk of fate and have to do absoluetely nothing that requires engagement with the pyramid beyond doing what you always have!

By being a member of a league which is part of the pyramid a club becomes a part of the pyramid.

There is no requirement, yet, at Tier6 for clubs to be Licenced. This appears to be a common misunderstanding.

In any case all of the non-licenced clubs in the 2017/18 EoS have been carrying out improvement/up-grades on and off pitch so they have improved their possibilities for becoming Licenced in future. Examples:

LTHV:  Now has cover at the ground.

Tynecastle: Next season playing at a ground which most clubs would give their eye teeth for.

Heriott-Watt Uni:  New Covered seated stands.

Ormiston: New ground.

Eyemouth United: Improvements to their ground.

Peebles Rovers: Getting their ground enclosed.

Tweedmouth Rangers  : Playing at Berwick Rangers' ground next season.

[Cowden Cowboy]

Eh?  Why would a place be taken away from the West or North  because the East Superleague is weaker? 

Because they have not committed to the pyramid system - the Scottish Cup place was a carrot and clubs who are in pyramid are unlikely to countenance the continuation of this for outliers - licensing payments to clubs in the pyramid will now increase and thus there will be little inclination to let non pyramid league winners continue to get a bit of the senior game's resources - the Junior Cup winners would get in along with the Amateur Cup winners and that would be it

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I can give you another 10 very mediocre teams if you like.  Whoever ends up in their group it will be a weaker set of clubs than they currently play.

Going to guess of the 95 they were averaging the majority of that will be Camelon fans. A strange thing will happen at the same Camelon fans will probably be turning out next year. Almost as if supporting their team is what it's all about.

[kefc]

3 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

I can give you another 10 very mediocre teams if you like.  Whoever ends up in their group it will be a weaker set of clubs than they currently play.

Possibly for one season, the anti pyramid posters on here I feel tend to pick holes on short term situations to back up their view which has to be respected but what will the pyramid look like in 3, 5, 10 years?

The Lowland League and the pyramid have been going for only 5 years and look at the strides it’s made, theres even a rumour more Irn Bru Cup places could be on offer from the SPFL in the not too distant future for the LL. The LL, EOS and the pyramid will and are evolving at a fast pace and for the better of non league football.

[Deanburn Dave]

On the assumption that the BU's are accepted into the EoSFL for next season there are lots of things I am looking forward to:-  new grounds to visit, new teams to see and new cup competitions to play in.     Roll on next season as I cannot wait.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, cmontheloknow said:

Good to hear! But while you're unlicensed, you're as much an SFA member as Pollok - registered. Only difference is we're an affiliated association and you're an affiliated league (which has moved into the pyramid).

Point remains though - EoS/SoS clubs are not obliged to get a license - fair enough. But I don't see the need to remove the Junior places while that remains.

That's right. Clubs are either Full Members of the SFA or Registered Members.

However, it appears that the League or Affiliated Association to which a club affiliates does make a significant difference. The difference being the Rules and Regulations inside the pyramid compared with outside the pyramid. If a league is within the pyramid then the league has to comply as do clubs within that league. hence the West of Scotland League (whenever it materialises) will have to conform to pyramid rules and regs.

[bravehearts dad]

14 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

If you go to some of your newly-found friend’s grounds you won’t even find a wall to piss against.

I should be okay I know not to piss against the wind.

[Ginaro]

Just now, Khufu2 said:

I can give you another 10 very mediocre teams if you like.  Whoever ends up in their group it will be a weaker set of clubs than they currently play.

Well yeah, it's a transition season with clubs spread over three conferences so of course it's going to be a weaker set of clubs in each group.

Camelon could end up with Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale, Tynecastle, Burntisland Shipyard, Eyemouth United, Dunipace, Linlithgow Rose, Broxburn Athletic, Jeanfield Swifts, Blackburn United, St Andrews United, Edinburgh United, Craigroyston.

Better in terms of travelling than the Juniors, but yes probably eight of those will be weaker than Camelon. However if they are good enough they'll be in the top 4/5 and get into the EoS premier for next season.

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

Aye, but somebody is going to invade the pitch shortly, and get the match abandoned...

 

"There are some people on the pitch, they think its all over............it is now."

(Kenneth Wolstenholme     July 1966)

Perhaps he meant to say "juniors" instead of "people" ?   

Said with apologies, as this is a Scottish forum.

 

 

[Dev]

19 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Don't think the boundary necessarily needs to be moved, all they really need to do is give clubs that are in easy walking distance of the boundary line and can be viewed as catering to a catchment area that straddles the line a choice based on local circumstances.

That would be a common sense thing to do.

However, is it correct that the north-south dividing line only applies to SPFL clubs in the event of their relegation to the Highland or Lowland leagues? Not applicable therefore to lower clubs?

Whichever the case may be surely the clubs located south of the North Juniors' area and above the dividing line should be asked what they want? It would only take a couple of weeks to do that. Simples!

[Khufu2]

19 minutes ago, kefc said:

Possibly for one season, the anti pyramid posters on here I feel tend to pick holes on short term situations to back up their view which has to be respected but what will the pyramid look like in 3, 5, 10 years?

The Lowland League and the pyramid have been going for only 5 years and look at the strides it’s made, theres even a rumour more Irn Bru Cup places could be on offer from the SPFL in the not too distant future for the LL. The LL, EOS and the pyramid will and are evolving at a fast pace and for the better of non league football.

So it’s just for one year. If all goes well,  the  following season Camelon will be not quite back to where they started. If (unlikely) they are EoS champions they might get into the LL. Why would the crowds be turning out for Whitehill, Selkirk, Edusport, BSC when they don’t turn out for Superleague opposition?

 

 

[Khufu2]

17 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Well yeah, it's a transition season with clubs spread over three conferences so of course it's going to be a weaker set of clubs in each group.

Camelon could end up with Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale, Tynecastle, Burntisland Shipyard, Eyemouth United, Dunipace, Linlithgow Rose, Broxburn Athletic, Jeanfield Swifts, Blackburn United, St Andrews United, Edinburgh United, Craigroyston.

Better in terms of travelling than the Juniors, but yes probably eight of those will be weaker than Camelon. However if they are good enough they'll be in the top 4/5 and get into the EoS premier for next season.

Not quite back where they started in terms of opponents the people of Camelon can’t be arsed coming out to watch.

[Gimme]

On the assumption that the BU's are accepted into the EoSFL for next season there are lots of things I am looking forward to:-  new grounds to visit, new teams to see and new cup competitions to play in.     Roll on next season as I cannot wait.

And of course being able to plan those visits in advance, an alien concept for us to get used to next season!

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Khufu2 said:

Well let's consider progression on the park.  Let's be utterly and totally realistic. How many  of the current defectors could ever, in a hundred years, contemplate playing in SPFL2?  How many would even want to, the way it's presently constituted? I would guess 3 at most. So what you mean then is progression for a few to tier 5, the Lowland League.  This is realistically what ex-juniors can reasonably aspire to. And is it really progression, given the present constitution of the Lowland League? How many years before the LL actually contains the best non-league teams in the southern half of Scotland?

I'm all for a pyramid, but one which makes sense - not this shambolic set-up we have now in the East, created out of sheer panic.  I hope the West juniors will show how it should be done, but I have my doubts. 

You still haven't answered my question, you have deflected with another argument. 

On field progression is dictated by many, many factors. These include, off field progression (the way the club runs and operates, sponsorship, direction, vision, mission etc), league played in, management team, coaching methods, club ethos, playing squad. So to suggest clubs will not progress may be naive at this stage, as no one can predict the future. We will all have to wait and see I suppose. 

And sheer panic? Ask the clubs who applied and moved prior to the first deadline if it was a panic move.... I suggest it was not, I suggest it was a calculated move towards long term sustainable progress. 

Why is it shambolic for 39 teams to be split into leagues and fight it out for a Premier division spot for the following season (everyone's assumption of how the eosfl will be set up next year). This is unprecedented in terms of a move and a transition season is on the cards, after that the pyramid will have another level for teams to flow through. What will most likely happen as the standard increases in both the LL and the eosfl and the HL the play off to get into the spfl will vanish and automatic promotion and relegation will take place.... Not straight away but in time. 

This all being said, you can continue to deflect, redirect and peddle the narrative that money isn't available and won't be..... Even though the move isn't solely about money..... 

 

 

[Jambo'ness]

3 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

So it’s just for one year. If all goes well,  the  following season Camelon will be not quite back to where they started. If (unlikely) they are EoS champions they might get into the LL. Why would the crowds be turning out for Whitehill, Selkirk, Edusport, BSC when they don’t turn out for Superleague opposition?

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Khufu2 said:

Not quite back where they started in terms of opponents the people of Camelon can’t be arsed coming out to watch.

And if the above is true, why do you keep banging on about it?  Are you scared that if next season's EoS proves successful, the west will turn senior too and Junior football will be all but gone, not dead, integrated into something that should have been done years ago?

Or, as I suspect, you are just a troll getting a thrill from every red dot you get.

Oh and spare answering that i'm a deluded soul.