Junior football, what is the future?

[Dev]

56 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

They're not holding anyone back. There isn't the same conflict in the North that there is in the South.

Junior Cup has already been amended to fit within the Senior calendar. There's no cup competition like the South Challenge Cup that requires their participation. They'd gain access to SFA licencing to make this work.

Majority of North Juniors would probably roll out the red carpet for Banks O'Dee to get them into the Highland League, so they stop hoovering up titles.

The issue isn't from the North Region. It would have been a Highland League side(s) not wanting to get relegated into a Junior League that could have been the problem. That doesn't seem to be the case though. Of the 17 in the league 4 came from the Juniors (Inverurie, Strathspey, Formartine, and Turriff). So maybe that's why they're not that bothered by it.

By  "not holding anyone back" I was thinking about a post on Fitba North which was positive towards the North Juniors moving to the Senior Pyramid and suggested, indeed, that there are a few clubs which are thought to be interested to make the move within their present league, albeit not as a Junior league. It also indicated that the other clubs (the majority)  aren't too concerned about going into the pyramid but they wouldn't block such a move.

There may the possibility of the league moving to senior status and clubs becoming Senior but retaining Junior status just like some clubs in the new WoS.

We shall see in due course.

[welshbairn]

I get the impression that most North Juniors aren't that bothered about their grade or the pyramid, so long as they get left alone to do their own thing and don't have to spend any money doing up their facilities.

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Dev said:

By  "not holding anyone back" I was thinking about a post on Fitba North which was positive towards the North Juniors moving to the Senior Pyramid and suggested, indeed, that there are a few clubs which are thought to be interested to make the move within their present league, albeit not as a Junior league. It also indicated that the other clubs (the majority)  aren't too concerned about going into the pyramid but they wouldn't block such a move.

There may the possibility of the league moving to senior status and clubs becoming Senior but retaining Junior status just like some clubs in the new WoS.

We shall see in due course.

Once its in the pyramid its basically a name change. That's the only difference. Rules and regulations will be in line to the Highland League/SFA's standards. Access to SFA Licencing. That's it really. Being called NoSFL or NRSJFA doesn't matter much at that point.

[Cyclizine]

The NCL and NRJFA becoming feeders is the pragmatic solution for the North. As @welshbairn says, there's not really a clamour from the north junior clubs to enter the pyramid. Realistically, I don't think we're going to see any relegation from the HFL any time soon, but if this solution allows the junior clubs that are interested to pursue licencing and potentially step up, I think that's really positive.

The issue of the North of Tay ERJFA clubs still remains though...

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

The NCL and NRJFA becoming feeders is the pragmatic solution for the North. As @welshbairn says, there's not really a clamour from the north junior clubs to enter the pyramid. Realistically, I don't think we're going to see any relegation from the HFL any time soon, but if this solution allows the junior clubs that are interested to pursue licencing and potentially step up, I think that's really positive.

The issue of the North of Tay ERJFA clubs still remains though...

I think there's a real chance of Fort William dropping to the NCL whether or not there's a NCL club ready to replace them. They can't fulfil their HL fixtures remotely on schedule even in a mild winter, and the flexibility and fewer games in the NCL would suit them. After the Caley Colt thing last season as well, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other clubs have had enough.

[FairWeatherFan]

40 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I think there's a real chance of Fort William dropping to the NCL whether or not there's a NCL club ready to replace them. They can't fulfil their HL fixtures remotely on schedule even in a mild winter, and the flexibility and fewer games in the NCL would suit them. After the Caley Colt thing last season as well, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other clubs have had enough.

I think we'll have an idea of how seriously the HL are treating this by the number they set themselves. 16 they're showing Fort William the door pretty much. 18 they're given they're existing members a chance. 20 they're not expecting to reach that high but want a system in place that allows for flexibility.

[Andy groundhopper]

Considering the geography, I'm amazed that the North has the HL as a senior league, to get a feeder league would be another step forward. Guess the juniors are happy where they are, allowing for ambitious clubs to progress if they wish. Have only seen a few HL games, where is the league in comparison to the English set up ? 

[Robert James]

5 hours ago, glensmad said:

I'm pretty certain that this couldn't happen for 2020-21. The WoSFL had to have all of its rules and structure approved several weeks ago to enable it to go to the SFA AGM for ratification. If the HL/NCL/NRSJFA are still in discussions, then surely it would have to be 2021-22 ?

 

Discussions between the three leagues have been taking place since the middle of last year, albeit slowly because of the 'sensitive' situation within the NRJFA itself. The problems (within the SJFA) arising from the  creation of a 'senior' West of Scotland League, has probably not helped the Juniors uncertain future, overall.

The HFL and the NCL, are both 'senior' leagues, and it is understood that there is a general agreement between them about such issues as general rules/obligations, and  relegation/promotion.  If the Juniors are unable to commit to the pyramid at present,  the HFL and the NCL  may  jointly agree to go ahead  without them, for 2020/21.  Expect an announcement soon.. 

In general, the SFA has indicated that it supports the establishment of a  pyramid beneath the Highland League. 

[welshbairn]

10 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Considering the geography, I'm amazed that the North has the HL as a senior league, to get a feeder league would be another step forward. Guess the juniors are happy where they are, allowing for ambitious clubs to progress if they wish. Have only seen a few HL games, where is the league in comparison to the English set up ? 

Depends who's playing, there's a massive gulf between top and bottom but lots of good competitive games in between. Don't know lower league English football but would put the top half at least close to Welsh Premier League standard. Bit random but I saw a 3rd tier Dutch game and most of the HL games I've seen have been better than that.

[Cyclizine]

56 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Considering the geography, I'm amazed that the North has the HL as a senior league, to get a feeder league would be another step forward. Guess the juniors are happy where they are, allowing for ambitious clubs to progress if they wish. Have only seen a few HL games, where is the league in comparison to the English set up ? 

There's a big gulf as @welshbairn says. Top clubs are probably at Step 3/4 level, some maybe Step 2 on a good day. Majority probably sit around Step 5/6. The bottom teams are county level at best.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Cyclizine

[mcruic]

On 22/06/2020 at 21:19, Cyclizine said:

There's a big gulf as @welshbairn says. Top clubs are probably at Step 3/4 level, some maybe Step 2 on a good day. Majority probably sit around Step 5/6. The bottom teams are county level at best.

One way to estimate the strength is to use results in the "Irn-Bru Cup"

2017/18 - Cove Rangers 0-3 Crusaders
2018/19 - Coleraine 1-1 Formartine (2-1 pens)
2019/20 - Formartine 0-3 Glenavon
2019/20 - Connah's Quay 1-0 Cove Rangers

Cove and Formartine are top clubs, and they performed reasonably well against the top Welsh and Northern Irish teams (seemingly performing better away from home).
For comparison, the English clubs - Sutton United drew with Bohemians (League of Ireland), while Solihull Moors drew with Kelty Hearts.

So a top Highland League club could probably hold their own against a top half National League team in England (certainly at home).




 

[welshbairn]

Another example is the worst club by far in the Highland League, Fort William, drawing away to Albion Rovers in the Scottish Cup, but that probably says more about League 2 quality.

Edited June 24, 2020 by welshbairn

[Tutankhamen]

9 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Another example is the worst club by far in the Highland League, Fort William, drawing away to Albion Rovers in the Scottish Cup, but that probably says more about League 2 quality.

Albion Rovers, it's only matter of time before they end up ground sharing with Gartcairn.

[mcruic]

On 24/06/2020 at 20:45, welshbairn said:

Another example is the worst club by far in the Highland League, Fort William, drawing away to Albion Rovers in the Scottish Cup, but that probably says more about League 2 quality.

They did recover sufficiently to beat them 5-0 away in the replay though...

[Tutankhamen]

Soon see over the coming years how good the bottom SFL2 and LL teams are. If a SFL2 team can't beat a LL team over a two league play off they don't deserve to be in the SFL2.

[welshbairn]

13 minutes ago, mcruic said:

They did recover sufficiently to beat them 5-0 away in the replay though...

Given that they regularly get beaten by 2 figure goal differences by their fellow Highland League teams, that's not something to brag about, especially after drawing the first leg.

[mcruic]

17 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Given that they regularly get beaten by 2 figure goal differences by their fellow Highland League teams, that's not something to brag about, especially after drawing the first leg.

Last season, they lost 6-0 twice.  They didn't lose any other games by more than a 4-goal margin.  At home, their highest defeat was by 3.  They even won 2 games.  So they were definitely an improved side last season.  Albion Rovers gave them their worst home defeat...

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Last season, they lost 6-0 twice.  They didn't lose any other games by more than a 4-goal margin.  At home, their highest defeat was by 3.  They even won 2 games.  So they were definitely an improved side last season.  Albion Rovers gave them their worst home defeat...

Well tbf that was really Caley Colts in that they fielded 9 Caley Thistle youths who were all dropped at the end of the season. The year before Albion got pumped out of the Cup 2-0 by Formartine.

[mcruic]

14 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Well tbf that was really Caley Colts in that they fielded 9 Caley Thistle youths who were all dropped at the end of the season. The year before Albion got pumped out of the Cup 2-0 by Formartine.

Yes.  To be expected though that teams from the top half of a lower league can beat teams from the bottom half of the league above.  Leagues aren't generally straight up and down affairs - there is at least 30-50% overlap between bottom of league above/top of league below.  Most of the top half teams in the Highland or even Lowland League could beat a League 2 bottom feeder.  Top teams in the East of Scotland League would have a chance too.
 

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Yes.  To be expected though that teams from the top half of a lower league can beat teams from the bottom half of the league above.  Leagues aren't generally straight up and down affairs - there is at least 30-50% overlap between bottom of league above/top of league below.  Most of the top half teams in the Highland or even Lowland League could beat a League 2 bottom feeder.  Top teams in the East of Scotland League would have a chance too.
 

Very true, but I think it's taken to extremes in Scotland, with League 2 sides terrified of what's below them after being protected for so long. The Elgin City chairman was quite honest about it in an interview.