Junior football, what is the future?

[AlanCamelonfan]

5 minutes ago, Junior Pub League said:

No we don't.

I was poo pooed on here weeks ago by certain individuals when I said that the WoS (as run by the LL) was not at that point certain to start next season.

As yet there has still been no guarantee or confirmation that the WoS will run next year. Anyone saying anything to the contrary is not being wholly truthful at this point.

As the poster below says it is happening. Anyone who stays junior with the thinking they will get into the pyramid is a joke. Anyone who wants to stay junior because they dont want to go into the pyramid is fine too. But all we will have is a split

[glensmad]

56 minutes ago, the rambler said:

From what I hear there does appear to be growing  support for WJFA option if Pyramid entry can be guaranteed. 

The meeting on 12th March will tell us a whole lot more, until then just speculation as to who is going where and how many West League options. 

I hope that this can be resolved so that traditional rivals can continue to play one another and with access to the Pyramid. 

I understand that the meeting is actually on Tuesday 10th March.

[morley]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

http://slfl.co.uk/legal/slfl-rules-regulations/

Thanks BM. So that spfl pyramid contract states in annex 1 clause 1 sub paragraph c that any change to pyramid rules has to be agreed by all parties. The only named parties being the Sfa, the Spfl, ShFL, and the SLFL. There is no clause about what happens if 1 or more party doesn't agree and therefore without that all parties agreement is required in all situations. It also states in Annex 1 clause 3 sub paragraph c that it only recognises the geogrpahical juristiction of the HL and LL in the pyramid across the divide latitude line. That means any change to the pyramid rules, such as introducing a new party like the West Juniors cant be made with out the agreement of all parties, meaning the Sfa have no overriding clause allowing them to force through any change with out agreement of all 4 parties. It also says nothing about where the LL source their teams other than stipulates they only have approval for 16 teams. Therefore that means as the only recognised party in the agrement for the Lowland region in the pyramid its entirely the LL choice as to where they source any teams to make up that 16 in the Lowland catchment area, subject to the rules under the LL pyramid contract as I comment on below. Therefore I am really struggling to see how the West juniors can legally make a change to the pyramid rules with out agreement of all 4 named parties, ie the sfa, spfl, SLFL, ShFL. 

The Lowland League play off contract then similarly recognise only the Sfa, SLFL, EOS, and SOS as parties to that agreement and also states any change has to be subject to all parties agreement.

So overall across both contracts there is no clause which would allow the sfa to force any change to either the spfl pyramid rules or the Lowland League entry rules with out agreement of all parties. 

Edited: In theory the Sfa could withdraw from both agreements in effect forcing both the agreements to fold (arguably they could continue with out the sfa) however would the Sfa really want to create that much upheaval just to help the West juniors proposal go through with no garauntee a new agreement would be reached any by when. (And interesting coincidence potentially save Brechin from relegation). I very much doubt it. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by morley

[TFW]

12 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

 

The whole BREXIT shite was refreshing by comparison to this.

[Junior Pub League]

32 minutes ago, Baldie2k19 said:

That's because we haven't yet even reached the closing date for applications. It IS happening.

 

29 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

As the poster below says it is happening. Anyone who stays junior with the thinking they will get into the pyramid is a joke. Anyone who wants to stay junior because they dont want to go into the pyramid is fine too. But all we will have is a split

I'm still waiting for someone to provide proof of this......

Saying something is happening does not mean it will happen.

 

[Dev]

33 minutes ago, morley said:

Thanks BM. So that contract states in annex 1 clause 1 sub paragraph c that any change to pyramid rules has to be agreed by all parties. The only named parties being the Sfa, the Spfl, ShFL, and the SLFL. There is no clause about what happens if 1 or more party doesn't agree and therefore without that all parties agreement is required in all situations. It also states in Annex 1 clause 3 sub paragraph c that it only recognises the geogrpahical juristiction of the HL and LL in the pyramid across the divide latitude line. That means any change to the pyramid rules, such as introducing a new party like the West Juniors cant be made with out the agreement of all parties, meaning the Sfa have no overriding clause allowing them to force through any change with out agreement of all 4 parties. It also says nothing about where the LL source their teams other than stipulates they only have approval for 16 teams. Therefore that means as the only recognised party in the agrement for the Lowland region in the pyramid its entirely the LL choice as to where they source any teams to make up that 16 in the Lowland catchment area. There fore I am really struggling to see how the West juniors can legally make a change to the pyramid rules with out agreement of all 4 named parties, ie the sfa, spfl, SLFL, ShFL. 

It's probably easier for everyone to follow if the relevant rules are copied and pasted so everyone can see for themselves so here are the key rules :

Extracted from:

Scottish Lowland Football League Constitution and Rules Version 10 (20 July 2018)

A – GENERAL

A1   The name of this combination of clubs will be called the Scottish Lowland Football League, and is thereinafter referred to as the ‘League’.

Objectives

A2   The objectives of the League shall be:

a) To conduct each season League and League Cup competitions between the Clubs in Membership;

b) To conduct such other competitions as may be decided from time to time.

Alterations to the Constitution and Rules

F – MEETINGS

F7   No alterations will be made to the Constitution or the Rules except at the Annual General Meeting or at a Special General Meeting summoned for this purpose. Notice of the proposed alteration(s) must be intimated to the Secretary, in writing, on or before 30th April each year. A copy of such alteration(s) will be circulated by the Secretary on or before 15th May for inclusion on the agenda of the Annual General Meeting. A copy of such alterations will be sent to each Club in membership at least fourteen (14) days prior to the meeting convened to deal with the matter.

I – PYRAMID

I1   A Pyramid Play-Off Competition shall take place each year and shall be played in accordance with Pyramid Play-Off Rules as detailed in annex 1.

Extracted from:

ANNEX 1

PYRAMID PLAY-OFF COMPETITION RULES

I   Definitions, Interpretation and Infringement of these Pyramid Play-off Competition Rules

c) Any amendment to these Pyramid Play-Off Rules must be agreed by each of the Scottish FA, SPFL, SHFL and SLFL prior to it becoming effective.

III   Team Eligibility and Running of Competition

c) In the event of Club 42 losing the Pyramid Play-Off Match, it will be relegated to the SHFL League if its Registered Ground is located North of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N or to the SLFL if its Registered Ground is located South of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N and it shall thereafter comply with the rules and regulations of the relevant league.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Dev

[GordonS]

I'm still waiting for someone to provide proof of this......
Saying something is happening does not mean it will happen.
 

I can't prove that Liverpool are going to win the league.

But Liverpool are going to win the league.

If you think the PWG being abandoned and there being 48 expressions of interest mean anything other than that it's going to happen, can I interest you in a bet on Man City winning the league?

[Dev]

It can be seen by all that this means that the process for the Play-Offs is clear and cannot be changed without the agreement of leagues etc including the Lowland League.

The destination of any team relegated from SPFL Division 2 is clear as it is (currently) defined by a line of latitude. This cannot be changed without agreement from all of the leagues etc, including the Lowland League.

However, there is nothing in these rules which prevents pyramid leagues at Tier 6 from accepting into membership (or rejecting) clubs from the "other" side of this Tier 4/5 line of latitude. It is therefore the choice of the Tier 6 Pyramid leagues how they deal with such applications.

The Lowland League can conduct such other competitions as may be decided from time to time e.g. at Tier 6 or lower, Development League, Under 20's, etc.

Like all reputable leagues there is provision in the Rules for changes to the Rules. Ordinarily any changes must be put to the League Secretary by the end of April each year. This strongly suggests that any new Division(s) of the Lowland League being set up for 2020/21 will be sorted out to this dead-line - as any reasonable person might assume.

In other words they have this stitched up.

The SJFA and or any of its' Regions can go running to the SFA (or give that impression) as though they are some sort of Wizard-like organisation which just has to wave its' magic wand and its' wishes will be done but it will cut no ice.

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Dev

[Ross.]

1 minute ago, GordonS said:

I can't prove that Liverpool are going to win the league.

But Liverpool are going to win the league.

If you think the PWG being abandoned and there being 48 expressions of interest mean anything other than that it's going to happen, can I interest you in a bet on Man City winning the league?

Sums it up for me. Everything points to it happening and the only question now is who goes first and who risks getting left behind.

[Burnie_man]

50 minutes ago, morley said:

Thanks BM. So that contract states in annex 1 clause 1 sub paragraph c that any change to pyramid rules has to be agreed by all parties. The only named parties being the Sfa, the Spfl, ShFL, and the SLFL. There is no clause about what happens if 1 or more party doesn't agree and therefore without that all parties agreement is required in all situations. It also states in Annex 1 clause 3 sub paragraph c that it only recognises the geogrpahical juristiction of the HL and LL in the pyramid across the divide latitude line. That means any change to the pyramid rules, such as introducing a new party like the West Juniors cant be made with out the agreement of all parties, meaning the Sfa have no overriding clause allowing them to force through any change with out agreement of all 4 parties. It also says nothing about where the LL source their teams other than stipulates they only have approval for 16 teams. Therefore that means as the only recognised party in the agrement for the Lowland region in the pyramid its entirely the LL choice as to where they source any teams to make up that 16 in the Lowland catchment area. There fore I am really struggling to see how the West juniors can legally make a change to the pyramid rules with out agreement of all 4 named parties, ie the sfa, spfl, SLFL, ShFL. 

Correct.  Hence why last season's "done deal" claims turned out to be nonsense.  The SFA were arbiters at PWG, they cannot force change upon leagues. 

The quicker clubs realise there's no magic solution that the WRJFA/Ronney have found to get round this, the quicker we can bin this charade and get on with it. 

They're selling magic beans.

 

 

[morley]

58 minutes ago, morley said:

Thanks BM. So that spfl pyramid contract states in annex 1 clause 1 sub paragraph c that any change to pyramid rules has to be agreed by all parties. The only named parties being the Sfa, the Spfl, ShFL, and the SLFL. There is no clause about what happens if 1 or more party doesn't agree and therefore without that all parties agreement is required in all situations. It also states in Annex 1 clause 3 sub paragraph c that it only recognises the geogrpahical juristiction of the HL and LL in the pyramid across the divide latitude line. That means any change to the pyramid rules, such as introducing a new party like the West Juniors cant be made with out the agreement of all parties, meaning the Sfa have no overriding clause allowing them to force through any change with out agreement of all 4 parties. It also says nothing about where the LL source their teams other than stipulates they only have approval for 16 teams. Therefore that means as the only recognised party in the agrement for the Lowland region in the pyramid its entirely the LL choice as to where they source any teams to make up that 16 in the Lowland catchment area, subject to the rules under the LL pyramid contract as I comment on below. Therefore I am really struggling to see how the West juniors can legally make a change to the pyramid rules with out agreement of all 4 named parties, ie the sfa, spfl, SLFL, ShFL. 

The Lowland League play off contract then similarly recognise only the Sfa, SLFL, EOS, and SOS as parties to that agreement and also states any change has to be subject to all parties agreement.

So overall across both contracts there is no clause which would allow the sfa to force any change to either the spfl pyramid rules or the Lowland League entry rules with out agreement of all parties. 

Edited: In theory the Sfa could withdraw from both agreements in effect forcing both the agreements to fold (arguably they could continue with out the sfa) however would the Sfa really want to create that much upheaval just to help the West juniors proposal go through with no garauntee a new agreement would be reached any by when. I very much doubt it. 

Have made further edits to my earlier post recognising feedback from a few others. 

[Pyramidic]

1 hour ago, morley said:

Thanks BM. So that spfl pyramid contract states in annex 1 clause 1 sub paragraph c that any change to pyramid rules has to be agreed by all parties. The only named parties being the Sfa, the Spfl, ShFL, and the SLFL. There is no clause about what happens if 1 or more party doesn't agree and therefore without that all parties agreement is required in all situations. It also states in Annex 1 clause 3 sub paragraph c that it only recognises the geogrpahical juristiction of the HL and LL in the pyramid across the divide latitude line. That means any change to the pyramid rules, such as introducing a new party like the West Juniors cant be made with out the agreement of all parties, meaning the Sfa have no overriding clause allowing them to force through any change with out agreement of all 4 parties. It also says nothing about where the LL source their teams other than stipulates they only have approval for 16 teams. Therefore that means as the only recognised party in the agrement for the Lowland region in the pyramid its entirely the LL choice as to where they source any teams to make up that 16 in the Lowland catchment area, subject to the rules under the LL pyramid contract as I comment on below. Therefore I am really struggling to see how the West juniors can legally make a change to the pyramid rules with out agreement of all 4 named parties, ie the sfa, spfl, SLFL, ShFL. 

The Lowland League play off contract then similarly recognise only the Sfa, SLFL, EOS, and SOS as parties to that agreement and also states any change has to be subject to all parties agreement.

So overall across both contracts there is no clause which would allow the sfa to force any change to either the spfl pyramid rules or the Lowland League entry rules with out agreement of all parties.

In the interests of openness and transparency Beenze / Gordon Ronney needs to properly respond to this excellent post. At the moment he appears to be leading a group of WRJFA clubs down a dead-end cul-de-sac with a scheme that he cannot deliver.

Simple question Mr Ronney. How do you propose to deliver the WRJFA "New League" initiative given the current wording of the SLFL Rules & Regulations?

Over the last 2 years and more there has been far too much misrepresentation of the facts because of self interests.  It is time for an honest appraisal as to what the WRJFA can and cannot deliver.

I assume that if you do not reply to this post you cannot deliver and are totally misleading a set of well-intentioned WRJFA clubs!

Edited March 4, 2020 by Pyramidic

[Junior Pub League]

12 minutes ago, GordonS said:

If you think the PWG being abandoned and there being 48 expressions of interest mean anything other than that it's going to happen, can I interest you in a bet on Man City winning the league?

Thought.

Think.

Words.

That's all it is at the moment, so its preposterous to see the same posters pile on someone else for saying exactly the same thing in relation to a different league setup.

[Born To Run]

9 minutes ago, Junior Pub League said:

Thought.

Think.

Words.

That's all it is at the moment, so its preposterous to see the same posters pile on someone else for saying exactly the same thing in relation to a different league setup.

Let me put it another way then. As you say, nothing is guaranteed until it happens. However:

- By rules, the Lowland/EoS led West League would automatically join the pyramid at tier 6 and feed into tier 5

- By rules, the WRSJFA led West League would require more negotiation and agreements in order to join the pyramid at tier 6 and feed into tier 5

One is infinitely easier than the other to achieve.

[honestman54]

3 minutes ago, Born To Run said:

Let me put it another way then. As you say, nothing is guaranteed until it happens. However:

- By rules, the Lowland/EoS led West League would automatically join the pyramid at tier 6 and feed into tier 5

- By rules, the WRSJFA led West League would require more negotiation and agreements in order to join the pyramid at tier 6 and feed into tier 5

One is infinitely easier than the other to achieve.

And the Juniors have had 2 years to come up with a plan and wouldnt even be doing this if the LL hadnt stepped in.  I think they will prefer to be in control of the new set up rather than having to wait years for decisions on how things move forward.

[AlanCamelonfan]

57 minutes ago, Junior Pub League said:

 

I'm still waiting for someone to provide proof of this......

Saying something is happening does not mean it will happen.

 

See the irony their wrsjfa are telling ppl they will be in the pyramid when they wont. 

What would u call proof? Because I dont think what they say will be believed by you so it's not true until 25th July for the big kick off

[Windymillar]

16 hours ago, Doonhamer1969 said:

Serious question....

Has anybody on this forum ACTUALLY in real life spent a cold Tuesday night in Elgin ?

Law of averages suggests someone must have !!!!

Yes,

Was on a night out, not at footy but fekkin freezing none the less

Technically that counts...…. surely

[AlanCamelonfan]

4 minutes ago, Windymillar said:

Yes,

Was on a night out, not at footy but fekkin freezing none the less

Technically that counts...…. surely

As longs it was a Tuesday 

[Cameron Wilson]

12 hours ago, Ginaro said:

Going back to how much a licence costs. Where else would you talk about only the expenditure and not the income from doing something? (e.g. you wouldn't just say we pay our players £xx,000 without also taking into account income from gates and sponsors etc).

The benefits of a licence are an annual payment from the SFA (5 figures) and at least £3k from the Scottish Cup. Also with floodlights comes the ability to keep consistent kick-off times, and play midweek to relieve fixture congestion.

Regarding different specification of floodlights - Auchinleck's are over 300 lux so will be suitable for the SPFL (same with Tranent I think) while others have gone for the 200 lux minimum.

@Doonhamer1969 the problem is if more than just one SOS team joins. What happens if it's 4 - you can't just add them onto the Premiership?

Juniorfitbasc's account is public if you want to read his ranting replies: https://twitter.com/JuniorFitbaSC/with_replies

Is that a parody account? Serious question.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, Junior Pub League said:

Thought.

Think.

Words.

That's all it is at the moment, so its preposterous to see the same posters pile on someone else for saying exactly the same thing in relation to a different league setup.

I mean, I suppose I've never actually seen a round Earth, so...