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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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On 02/04/2020 at 12:54, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I created this and posted it on the Coronavirus and the Scottish Championship thread but some here might want a look at it. Presuming the season is abandoned I decided to do 16 conferences of 17 in the Scottish league so we can start afresh like the East of Scotland did. Here’s how it turned out if we took it by current league position
 

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Celtic

 

Stranraer
Cove Rangers

Gala Fairydean

Huntly

Dunbar United

Wigtown & Bladnoch     

Invergordon 

Kilwinning Rangers

Tayport

Bathgate Thistle

Burghead Thistle

Cumbernauld United

Forfar Albion

Linlithgow Rose Community

Muirkirk Juniors

Maybole Juniors

 

Rangers

Forfar Athletic

Edinburgh City

Deveronvale

Berwick Rangers

Upper Annandale           

Crossgates Primrose 

Craigroyston  

Carnoustie Panmure

Beith Juniors

Montrose Roselea

Aberdeen University JFC

Blairgowrie Juniors

Whitletts Victoria

Buchanhaven Hearts

Yoker Athletic

Johnstone Burgh

 

Motherwell

Peterhead

Elgin City

University of Stirling

Strathspey Thistle

Linlithgow Rose

Lochmaben       

Arniston Rangers
Livingston United

Inverness

Bunillidh

Forres Thistle

Newburgh

Glentanar J.F.C.

Whitehills J.F.C.

Vale of Leven

Ashfield

 

Aberdeen

Clyde

Cowdenbeath

Wick Academy

Gretna 2008

Lochar Thistle

Sauchie Juniors

Peebles Rovers  

Banks O'Dee

Bridge of Don Thistle

Kilbirnie Ladeside

Sunnybank

Stonehaven

Buckie Rovers

Kilsyth Rangers

Royal Albert

Thorniewood United

 

Livingston

Dumbarton

Queen's Park

Cumbernauld Colts

Turriff United

Jeanfield Swifts 

Creetown

Easthouses Lily MW 

Thurso 

Fauldhouse United

Kirriemuir Thistle

Rosyth

Newmachar United JFC

Syngenta

Bo'ness United Junior

East Kilbride Thistle

Forth Wanderers

 

Hibernian

East Fife

Stirling Albion

Keith

Edinburgh University

St Cuthbert Wanderers

Blackburn United 

Ormiston  

Pollok

Luncarty

Harthill Royal

Dundee East Craigie

Blantyre Victoria

Coupar Angus

Dalry Thistle

Wishaw Juniors

Annbank United

 

St Johnstone

Montrose

Annan Athletic

Caledonian Braves

Clachnacuddin

Musselburgh Athletic

Whitehill Welfare

Hawick Royal Albert United  

Broughty Athletic

Glenafton Athletic

Deveronside

Darvel Juniors

Dundee Violet

Neilston Juniors

West Calder United

Kello Rovers                      

Vale of Clyde

 

Kilmarnock

Airdrieonians

Stenhousemuir

Nairn County

Dalbeattie Star

Heston Rovers

Newtongrange Star  

Burntisland Shipyard  

Pumpherston

Halkirk Utd

Bonar Bridge 

Kirkintilloch Rob Roy

Stoneyburn       

Cruden Bay

Gartcairn

Maryhill

St. Anthony's

 

St Mirren

Falkirk

Albion Rovers

East Kilbride

Lossiemouth

Penicuik Athletic

Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale

Tweedmouth Rangers 

Culter

Dyce

Scone Thistle

Rutherglen Glencairn

Fraserburgh United

Dufftown J.F.C.

Petershill

Girvan

Saltcoats Victoria

 

Ross County

Raith Rovers

Brechin City       

Forres Mechanics

Vale of Leithen 

Nithsdale Wanderers    

Tynecastle  

Oakley United  

Golspie

Armadale Thistle

Kennoway Star Hearts

Maud

Islavale

Sauchie Juniors Community

St. Roch's

Bellshill Athletic

Newmains United

 

Hamilton Academical

Partick Thistle

Brora Rangers

Civil Service Strollers

Fort William 

Dundonald Bluebell 

Leith Athletic  

Coldstream  

Auchinleck Talbot

Dundee North End         

Aberdeen East End

Benburb

Renfrew

Lochee Harp

Cambuslang Rangers

Larkhall Thistle

Lugar Boswell Thistle

 

Heart of Midlothian

Queen of the South

Kelty Hearts

Formartine United

Bo'ness United

Newton Stewart             

Inverkeithing Hillfield Swifts  

St Andrews United  

Lochee United

Clydebank

Rossvale

Ellon United

Arbroath Victoria

Arthurlie

Craigmark Burntonians

Glasgow Perthshire

Ardeer Thistle

 

Dundee United

Alloa Athletic

Inverurie Loco Works

The Spartans

Threave Rovers

Camelon Juniors 

Dunipace  

Dalkeith Thistle  

Whitburn Juniors

Orkney

Forfar West End

Troon

Kirkcaldy & Dysart

Spey Valley United

Irvine Victoria

Carluke Rovers

Glasgow Uni

 

Inverness Caledonian Thistle

Greenock Morton

Bonnyrigg Rose

Buckie Thistle

Broxburn Athletic 

Mid Annandale

Glenrothes  

Kinnoull FC  

Hermes

Nairn St. Ninian

Lochore Welfare

Hall Russell United

Longside

Stoneywood-Parkvale

Ardrossan Winton Rovers

Greenock Juniors

Drumchapel PYM

 

Dundee

Arbroath

Fraserburgh

BSC Glasgow                     

Abbey Vale        

Tranent Juniors  

Heriot Watt University  

Preston Athletic  

St. Duthus

Thornton Hibs

Colony Park JFC

Hurlford United

New Elgin

Lochgelly Albert

Lanark United

Lesmahagow Juniors

Oban Saints

 

Ayr United

Dunfermline

East Stirlingshire

Rothes

Hill of Beath Hawthorn

Bonnyton Thistle

Edinburgh United  

Haddington Athletic  

Irvine Meadow XI

Dundee Downfield

Largs Thistle

Banchory St. Ternan

Shotts Bon Accord

Brechin Victoria

Shettleston

Port Glasgow Juniors

Strathclyde Uni

I presumed Glasgow Uni are applying to the WoS and added in Oban and Strath Uni to make it an even amount but you get the jist

Might need to re-think those, you could end up with a Russia vs. Ukraine scenario with County and Golspie in the same conference.

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Assuming the season can start at a reasonable time. Are there other concerns over 4x 17 team Conferences?.

The EoS First Division Conferences were looking to do the same this season and there's probably the same sort of spread of floodlights. Of course the First Division would of finished after the LL playoffs giving them the extra couple of weeks.

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I don't think joining up the SCC and Junior Cup makes sense. One's national and one's regional.

Either you exclude the North teams, in which case it just is the SCC

Or you include everyone in the non-league game which means it either wouldn't be ran by the SJFA or SJFA membership wouldn't be a requirement to enter. At which point... why have the SJFA at all?

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20 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I don't think joining up the SCC and Junior Cup makes sense. One's national and one's regional.

Either you exclude the North teams, in which case it just is the SCC

Or you include everyone in the non-league game which means it either wouldn't be ran by the SJFA or SJFA membership wouldn't be a requirement to enter. At which point... why have the SJFA at all?

SCC is only regional because the North gave up their cup (both are legacies of the Qualifying Cups and replaced them).

If the SCC and SJC were merged, the only teams sitting out would be 17 HFL sides.

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On 02/04/2020 at 12:17, Marshmallo said:

Merge the South and West structures and let teams find their level within that. If they want to have a regional South league which covers a far smaller percentage of the population then that's fine. It shouldn't be at tier 6 though.

That’s your opinion and clearly appears irrelevant to the vast majority of other users but hey that’s what it’s all about - your voice , your choice , your opinions that you’re untitled to as is everyone else 

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On 02/04/2020 at 13:26, San Starko Rover said:

I'd like to have seen the entire SOSFL apply for the confrence season of the WOSFL and the LL pyramid would be sorted within 1 season.  Keeping the SOSFL at tier 6 makes no sense if their teams aren't strong enough to compete with the East and West champions, the SOSFL and WOSFL should be one league with the East v West playoff to go up, hopefully in the future it'll be both promoted. They can't have the argument the SOSFL has existed for X number of years so should just remain at tier 6 permanently when the WRJFA and ERJFA have ripped their leagues up to get the WOS and EOS sorted.  Any ambitious SOSFL team should be joining the WOSFL as playing in a better league will help to improve them.  

So you’re effectively saying they don’t deserve their current status , you firmly believe they are too weak to compete but you’re advocating they all jump into the WOSFL en masse and are in all probability comprehensively beaten on a regular basis by the better Junior sides ? Good thinking Batman and you’ll also expect everyone currently in the Senior ranks to just simply accept this point of view and be happy to do so now the Junior Clubs have at long last embraced the Pyramid !  I firmly believe this will happen and possibly sooner rather than later but to be told that’s the way it should in the blink of an eye isn't too appealing and you honestly think a long trip to the Glasgow area to take on one of the less famous names on a bleak Winters night is an appealingly carrot 🥕 for those perhaps not fancying almost 200 mile round trips anytime let alone potentially on a Wednesday ?  

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SCC is only regional because the North gave up their cup (both are legacies of the Qualifying Cups and replaced them).
If the SCC and SJC were merged, the only teams sitting out would be 17 HFL sides.
Yes but why have a pyramid cup that includes clubs who dont want anything to do with the pyramid? (Those who remain in the sjfa)

The very fact we are still debating the Junior Cup (Run by an association who wants nothing to do with the pyramid other than on their terms) frustrates me slightly.

If clubs join the pyramid they should play in the compulsory cups for the pyramid. Clubs will have to make a choice about losing the crutch relating to sjfa membership at some point, the junior Cup is already 3rd in the queue for fixtures, it may slide further down that list as time goes by.

If its an all in cup, surely that should be an all in pyramid teams only cup, for example teams from HL, eos, wos and sos?
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Yes but why have a pyramid cup that includes clubs who dont want anything to do with the pyramid? (Those who remain in the sjfa)

The very fact we are still debating the Junior Cup (Run by an association who wants nothing to do with the pyramid other than on their terms) frustrates me slightly.

If clubs join the pyramid they should play in the compulsory cups for the pyramid. Clubs will have to make a choice about losing the crutch relating to sjfa membership at some point, the junior Cup is already 3rd in the queue for fixtures, it may slide further down that list as time goes by.

If its an all in cup, surely that should be an all in pyramid teams only cup, for example teams from HL, eos, wos and sos?
Yep.
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On 02/04/2020 at 15:14, San Starko Rover said:

How does the SOS teams being part of the WOS provide a glass ceiling? They are in the South West of Scotland, if they covered the SOS they would include the East border teams, in reality they are a D&G  league and they're not at tier 6 on merit they're at tier 6 because they bought in early to the pyramid.  How many SOS teams are in the LL I count two one of which is based in Motherwell and I doubt will want to play in D&G league once the WOS is established if they're relegated.  By all means leave them where they are but what scored do you think we'll see when Bo'ness and Talbot play the SOS champions, what was Kelty's score 7-0 & 4-0

What difference do you actually think the Tier level makes to anything realistically ? You don’t receive a bye in the Scottish Cup if you’re Licensed because your at Tier 6 , you don’t get any difference in SFA money so what is your issue here with the South ? Spell it out loud and clear so we all know what your problem with us is ? 

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Yorker not applied yet? That seems mental as the Bankies will be gunning for SPFL football again so the ground getting licensed is a certainty. Be a very strange choice to remain outside the pyramid while playing at a fully licensed stadium. I’d have expected them to announce right after Clydebank especially as the WRJFA we’re pushing teams that way so no conflict of interest in going against their traditional Juniors history.

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3 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

Yorker not applied yet? That seems mental as the Bankies will be gunning for SPFL football again so the ground getting licensed is a certainty. Be a very strange choice to remain outside the pyramid while playing at a fully licensed stadium. I’d have expected them to announce right after Clydebank especially as the WRJFA we’re pushing teams that way so no conflict of interest in going against their traditional Juniors history.

I think B’man suggested earlier that all 63 WRJFA have applied. He’s usually a pretty reliable source of information on these matters.

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5 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

Yorker not applied yet? That seems mental as the Bankies will be gunning for SPFL football again so the ground getting licensed is a certainty. Be a very strange choice to remain outside the pyramid while playing at a fully licensed stadium. I’d have expected them to announce right after Clydebank especially as the WRJFA we’re pushing teams that way so no conflict of interest in going against their traditional Juniors history.

Yoker Athletic are to announce their decision this week, according to an earlier post.

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7 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

Yorker not applied yet? That seems mental as the Bankies will be gunning for SPFL football again so the ground getting licensed is a certainty. Be a very strange choice to remain outside the pyramid while playing at a fully licensed stadium. I’d have expected them to announce right after Clydebank especially as the WRJFA we’re pushing teams that way so no conflict of interest in going against their traditional Juniors history.

I thought all 63 had applied?

And to be pedantic, clubs are licensed, grounds aren't.

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Yorker not applied yet? That seems mental as the Bankies will be gunning for SPFL football again so the ground getting licensed is a certainty. Be a very strange choice to remain outside the pyramid while playing at a fully licensed stadium. I’d have expected them to announce right after Clydebank especially as the WRJFA we’re pushing teams that way so no conflict of interest in going against their traditional Juniors history.
There is more to club licencing than just stadium facilities. It is not the ground which gets a licence, it is the club.
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5 hours ago, parsforlife said:

There’s space for junior cup games to be scheduled for Saturday’s initially.  The issue kicks in when postponements come.  The league fixtures the following weekend will not be postponed to allow a 2nd attempt.   It can get rescheduled for the next ‘free’ weekend but these can be months apart and if you’ve had a league or SCC game postponed then they’ll be rescheduled in those free weekends first.

I find it very difficult in that scenario where junior cup games don’t end up being midweek.  Which either means looking for alternative venues or having  early evening kick offs in late season. Aberdeenshire clubs going to Ayrshire for 6pm kick off, it’s a nightmare 

Correct, postponements will be the issue. However a number of clubs will be out of the SCC by the time Junior Cup games are likely to get postponed - since the SCC will have an extra round - so gaps will open up.

There will be undoubtedly still be problems though, especially for the successful clubs fighting on all fronts.

5 hours ago, glensmad said:

Who at the SJFA is going to be in discussions with the LL-WoSFL regarding fixture dates for the Scottish Junior Cup ? Presumably that will be the SJFA Secretary's job ? How this will work could depend on how good a relationship there is between whoever it is who negotiates the Scottish Junior Cup dates.

Not sure how much negotiating would be going on, presumably the SJFA will be told "Here's the SCC and WOS derby dates (international weekends, new year etc.)" and asked "Now where do you want to put your four dates?".

4 hours ago, G4Mac said:

Yes, also meaning that the wos would not leave spare weekends to accommodate the junior cup. You can spin it both ways if you like but generally a statement which says scc and league fixtures take priority means they arent going to leave free weekends to accommodate another associations cup games.

Unless I'm missing something, it would be impossible not to leave spare weekends given there's only 30 league games + 5 SCC + 1 WOS cup taking place in a 42+ matchday calendar.

You're essentially copy and pasting the EOS Premier format, but removing the exclusive Scottish Cup and EOS qualifying cup dates from the calendar, leaving enough space for the Junior Cup. Once clubs are out of the SCC that will also provide more dates.

4 hours ago, G4Mac said:
5 hours ago, glensmad said:
Who at the SJFA is going to be in discussions with the LL-WoSFL regarding fixture dates for the Scottish Junior Cup ? Presumably that will be the SJFA Secretary's job ? How this will work could depend on how good a relationship there is between whoever it is who negotiates the Scottish Junior Cup dates.

Are the LL/wos really going to take the time to impact on their associations fixtures to accommodate the junior cup, a completely separate associations flagship cup? Whilst the LL are the most approachable people surely their flexibility has a stopping point.

The qualifying cup is the EOSFA's flagship cup and it has two exclusive dates - of course that's easier to organise with the LL/EOS fixture secretary being the same person, but the LL already does this. If most of the WOS clubs are SJFA members they will presumably make sure the initial fixtures include the Junior Cup.

4 minutes ago, AML67 said:

you honestly think a long trip to the Glasgow area to take on one of the less famous names on a bleak Winters night is an appealingly carrot 🥕 for those perhaps not fancying almost 200 mile round trips anytime let alone potentially on a Wednesday ?  

Is this the SOS version of the Tuesday night in Elgin trope?

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19 minutes ago, glensmad said:
22 minutes ago, Dev said:
Yoker Athletic are to announce their decision this week, according to an earlier post.

The deadline is tomorrow.

Making the decision and announcing it are two different things - they may well have made it already but have not yet announced it.

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Making the decision and announcing it are two different things - they may well have made it already but have not yet announced it.
They might find the announcement is made for them if they don't say anything before tomorrow night.
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