Junior football, what is the future?

[Robert James]

1 minute ago, Tutankhamen said:

Think they'd have joined the EoS league by now.

Or are West clubs waiting for a Pollok Pied Piper, to partner Pyramid Clydebank ?

An important year ahead.

 

[Tutankhamen]

23 hours ago, Robert James said:

Or are West clubs waiting for a Pollok Pied Piper, to partner Pyramid Clydebank ?

An important year ahead.

 

Money will decide it. Once clubs in the Greater Glasgow area see Pollok doing a runner the rest will follow. Clydebank has already stated it's intention.

Same goes with the big guns in Ayrshire. 

Club statements on Facebook/Twitter and AGMs will mean nothing going by the clubs in the East. Clubs changed sides within a month.

[archieb]

1 hour ago, Ian38018 said:

That what was I was thinking - if "Pollok and the Ayrshire big guns" apply to the SoS League, the subsequent tsunami of applications would lead to the SoS becoming the WoS almost by default.  Interesting Times.

Ain't gonna happen in a zillion years.

25 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said:

Money will decide it. Once clubs in the Greater Glasgow area see Pollok doing a runner the rest will follow. Clydebank has already stated it's intention.

Pollok will not be doing a runner, not least because there's nowhere to run to. IF that changes I'm sure we'll weigh up the pros and cons.

[Tutankhamen]

23 hours ago, archieb said:

Ain't gonna happen in a zillion years.

Pollok will not be doing a runner, not least because there's nowhere to run to. IF that changes I'm sure we'll weigh up the pros and cons.

I'll throw out there, when Pollok plays it's first game in August next year (2019) it won't be as a Junior team.

[kenny131]

6 hours ago, Tutankhamen said:

Don't think your allowed to say that on here.

f**k off isa

[kenny131]

4 hours ago, Tutankhamen said:

Money will decide it. Once clubs in the Greater Glasgow area see Pollok doing a runner the rest will follow. Clydebank has already stated it's intention.

Same goes with the big guns in Ayrshire. 

Club statements on Facebook/Twitter and AGMs will mean nothing going by the clubs in the East. Clubs changed sides within a month.

Big guns in Ayrshire tablet want nothing to do with it, but will go running soon enough.

[PastyMan]

10 hours ago, jc1 said:

Another issue that I heard was that was there not a cut off point for the EoS on the 31st of April? SFA going to look into sanctions apparently

31st of April?

Sounds legit

[tell_me_more]

7 hours ago, drs said:

Nobody is joining for the short term benefit though, this is a long term project. There aren't going to be 5 ex Junior teams in the SPFL by 2025 - this is a move to improve the clubs and the resources and options that are open to them. Anyone moving on the basis of drawing Hibs in the Scottish is deluding themselves, this is about better grounds, youth development, progression up (and down) the pyramid, fixtures, community involvement, becoming licenced and so much more.

None of which the juniors can offer.

Can you explain why you consider these benefits to be solely in the domain of "pyramid" leagues?

EG Grounds, where I live in East Ayrshire there has been massive improvements to all three of the bigger teams grounds through grants sponsorship and community involvement, I'm pretty sure those three would pass the minimum ground licensing requirements. Probably a few more grants available from SFA I give you that though they will be diluted probably.

Youth development leagues, I thought this was the domain of the SYFA? Again local teams in EA have youth teams up to 19's competing in leagues administered by the SYFA, theres also a 21's league in Glasgow area, so no change there.

Fixtures, yes that needs improvement but hardly insurmountable, hopefully to be improved next season with new fixture secretary and league / cup set up but will always be at the mercy of the weather.

I don't understand how moving leagues creates more community involvement, I doubt it very much in most instances.

Progression up and down, very few and I mean a handful at most of current Junior teams have the capacity to move beyond the lowland league so your up and down is probably pretty similar to the pyramid that exists within the junior leagues at the moment..

Becoming licensed, yes that is not available in the SJFA neither is The big cup involvement although cannot see many Junior clubs making big money from that when the elite have struggled bar on a few occasions.

"So much more" feel free to provide details it would be appreciated.

So in summary yes there are a few benefits but to say those you listed are sole property of pyramd leagues is totally inaccurate in my experience, maybe clubs in different ares o things differently.

[kenny131]

16 minutes ago, tell_me_more said:

Can you explain why you consider these benefits to be solely in the domain of "pyramid" leagues?

EG Grounds, where I live in East Ayrshire there has been massive improvements to all three of the bigger teams grounds through grants sponsorship and community involvement, I'm pretty sure those three would pass the minimum ground licensing requirements. Probably a few more grants available from SFA I give you that though they will be diluted probably.

Youth development leagues, I thought this was the domain of the SYFA? Again local teams in EA have youth teams up to 19's competing in leagues administered by the SYFA, theres also a 21's league in Glasgow area, so no change there.

Fixtures, yes that needs improvement but hardly insurmountable, hopefully to be improved next season with new fixture secretary and league / cup set up but will always be at the mercy of the weather.

I don't understand how moving leagues creates more community involvement, I doubt it very much in most instances.

Progression up and down, very few and I mean a handful at most of current Junior teams have the capacity to move beyond the lowland league so your up and down is probably pretty similar to the pyramid that exists within the junior leagues at the moment..

Becoming licensed, yes that is not available in the SJFA neither is The big cup involvement although cannot see many Junior clubs making big money from that when the elite have struggled bar on a few occasions.

"So much more" feel free to provide details it would be appreciated.

So in summary yes there are a few benefits but to say those you listed are sole property of pyramd leagues is totally inaccurate in my experience, maybe clubs in different ares o things differently.

Explain how having no sponsor for our biggest cup comp and the yearly fixture fiasco aligned with those running the juniors who are in it for themselves rather than doing a good job is more tempting. 

 

[tell_me_more]

14 minutes ago, kenny131 said:

Explain how having no sponsor for our biggest cup comp and the yearly fixture fiasco aligned with those running the juniors who are in it for themselves rather than doing a good job is more tempting. 

 

Whatiffery, I'm asking about why the pyramid leagues supposedly have a monopoly on those benefits DRS quoted.

Yes its a  shambles there's no sponsor, my team won it last year, but sponsor or not it is still the highlight of the non-league season by a country mile as will be illustrated by the attendance on sunday and the mass community involvement for the two teams involved.

The clubs are to blame as much as anyone for part of the fiasco with their insistance on playing too many cups and at the wrong time of the year.

Personally I am not against the pyramid with a few amendments to be added, but not under the impression it is the be all and end all to non league clubs.

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by tell_me_more

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Money will decide it. Once clubs in the Greater Glasgow area see Pollok doing a runner the rest will follow. Clydebank has already stated it's intention.

Same goes with the big guns in Ayrshire. 

Club statements on Facebook/Twitter and AGMs will mean nothing going by the clubs in the East. Clubs changed sides within a month.

Who are these ‘big guns’ because after saying no to the pyramid Talbot, Cumnock and Glenafton look like anything but ‘big guns’ to me. If you mean Buffs, Beith and Kilbirnie fair dos.

[HTG]

7 minutes ago, tell_me_more said:

Yes its a  shambles there's no sponsor, my team won it last year, but sponsor or not it is still the highlight of the non-league season by a country mile as will be illustrated by the attendance on sunday and the mass community involvement for the two teams involved.
 

 

It may be the highlight of the junior season but many would argue that it risks being left behind by the pyramid play-offs, at their various levels. I'm not saying that is the case yet but that's the direction of travel unless there is a radical and urgent overhaul. The latter stages of the junior cup have certainly been dominated by teams from the west in recent times but the way things are going I'm not sure what the entire format might look like. 

[LongTimeLurker]

11 hours ago, kenny131 said:

The SFA should step in and literally just close the junior fa down and suck the juniors into the pyramid those that don't want in then join the amatuer ranks. All this cluster fucking about will end in tears.

That's what should have happened five years ago, but a cynic might suggest that would have lessened the chances of Spartans and Cove Rangers getting into the SPFL.

[Burnie_man]

30 minutes ago, tell_me_more said:

Personally I am not against the pyramid with a few amendments to be added, but not under the impression it is the be all and end all to non league clubs.

 

 

1 hour ago, tell_me_more said:

Can you explain why you consider these benefits to be solely in the domain of "pyramid" leagues?

EG Grounds, where I live in East Ayrshire there has been massive improvements to all three of the bigger teams grounds through grants sponsorship and community involvement, I'm pretty sure those three would pass the minimum ground licensing requirements. Probably a few more grants available from SFA I give you that though they will be diluted probably.

Youth development leagues, I thought this was the domain of the SYFA? Again local teams in EA have youth teams up to 19's competing in leagues administered by the SYFA, theres also a 21's league in Glasgow area, so no change there.

Fixtures, yes that needs improvement but hardly insurmountable, hopefully to be improved next season with new fixture secretary and league / cup set up but will always be at the mercy of the weather.

I don't understand how moving leagues creates more community involvement, I doubt it very much in most instances.

Progression up and down, very few and I mean a handful at most of current Junior teams have the capacity to move beyond the lowland league so your up and down is probably pretty similar to the pyramid that exists within the junior leagues at the moment..

Becoming licensed, yes that is not available in the SJFA neither is The big cup involvement although cannot see many Junior clubs making big money from that when the elite have struggled bar on a few occasions.

"So much more" feel free to provide details it would be appreciated.

So in summary yes there are a few benefits but to say those you listed are sole property of pyramd leagues is totally inaccurate in my experience, maybe clubs in different ares o things differently.

There’s no one single reason why clubs in the East are moving into the Pyramid. It depends on the circumstances of each individual club and it will be a combination of any of the below reasons;

Some clubs want to be in the Lowland League and have a chance at SPFL football – no glass ceiling unlike Junior football.

Some clubs want to obtain an SFA Licence and guaranteed Scottish Cup entry every year – you can’t get that in the Juniors.

Some clubs are moving for the financial benefits on offer – there is no money in Junior football.

Some are moving as the grants available to senior clubs for ground improvements is greater than that to Junior clubs.

Some clubs are moving for the guarantee of fixture lists to better plan and attract sponsors and sell hospitality – there are no fixture lists in the Juniors despite endless promises.

Some clubs are moving due to the Lowland East of Scotland U20 Development League – U21 football is dying a death in many areas so most youth leagues top out at U19.

Some clubs are moving to keep local derbies and to avoid endless away days to Tayside and beyond.

Some clubs are moving because it’s simply a more professional environment than the Juniors, no bar on friendlies, no permits required, no re-instatement, more notice of fixtures, SFA handle disciplinary issues, more assistant referees available to EoS.

[GordonS]

25 minutes ago, HTG said:

It may be the highlight of the junior season but many would argue that it risks being left behind by the pyramid play-offs, at their various levels. I'm not saying that is the case yet but that's the direction of travel unless there is a radical and urgent overhaul. The latter stages of the junior cup have certainly been dominated by teams from the west in recent times but the way things are going I'm not sure what the entire format might look like. 

The biggest non-league senior play-off, between Cove Rangers and Spartans, drew 655 people for the second leg. I can't find a figure for the first leg but I think it was lower. There was a combined 2,300 or so at the two L2 play-off matches this season, the biggest tie in the senior non-league calendar.

At last year's Junior Cup Final there were 4,300 supporting Glenafton alone.

I find it disappointing that Talbot, Glenafton and Cumnock, three clubs far bigger and more successful than any club in the EoS or LL, get called diddy teams, as one poster here has done. Fans of the pyramid ought to ask themselves why its so unappealing to the the heartland of non-league football in Scotland, and maybe look at how to address their concerns rather than resort to name-calling.

[Jason King]

1 hour ago, tell_me_more said:

I don't understand how moving leagues creates more community involvement, I doubt it very much in most instances.

Progression up and down, very few and I mean a handful at most of current Junior teams have the capacity to move beyond the lowland league so your up and down is probably pretty similar to the pyramid that exists within the junior leagues at the moment..

The community involvement part is a requirement - there is even an award for the most community involved club in the LL, the pyramid puts an onus on community development an onus I've not seen from junior clubs in decades.

Your second point is true of course but being part of the pyramid allows clubs to progress upwards beyond their current glass ceiling - Bens can win the league title for the next two seasons and then have nowhere to go. The option of moving up the pyramid isn't there at the moment for the West clubs.

[Jason King]

5 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Fans of the pyramid ought to ask themselves why its so unappealing to the the heartland of non-league football in Scotland, and maybe look at how to address their concerns rather than resort to name-calling.

Ayrshire isn't the heartland of non-league football in Scotland.

[Cyclizine]

2 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Fans of the pyramid ought to ask themselves why its so unappealing to the the heartland of non-league football in Scotland, and maybe look at how to address their concerns rather than resort to name-calling.

I'll put this back to you and ask what is appealing to the clubs that makes them want to stay in the junior fold. You have still never answered this.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

The biggest non-league senior play-off, between Cove Rangers and Spartans, drew 655 people for the second leg. I can't find a figure for the first leg but I think it was lower. There was a combined 2,300 or so at the two L2 play-off matches this season, the biggest tie in the senior non-league calendar. At last year's Junior Cup Final there were 4,300 supporting Glenafton alone.

I find it disappointing that Talbot, Glenafton and Cumnock, three clubs far bigger and more successful than any club in the EoS or LL, get called diddy teams, as one poster here has done. Fans of the pyramid ought to ask themselves why its so unappealing to the the heartland of non-league football in Scotland, and maybe look at how to address their concerns rather than resort to name-calling.

 

Yes, well Glenafton brought about 25 people to their last away league game, most of those got in with a committee pass, so if you’re gonna measure success based on one off crowds keep that one in mind. How is that an enticing argument to stay junior when the supposed ‘big ayrshire giants’ can’t even bring a crowd?

 

I wouldnt call either of those clubs more successful, Edinburgh got into the SFL from the LL so in my opinion thats far more successful than winning a regional league or sponsor-less junior cup.

 

I personally couldnt care less if the south ayrshire triplets find the pyramid unappealing, I hope they stay junior and don’t join, Buffs, Beith and Ladeside would be a better addition to any WOSL, especially with the crowds they bring.

 

I love how the pyramid teams in your opinion has to ‘win over/appeal to’ the so called ‘big ayrshire clubs’ when really apart from Talbot none bring a decent travelling support except when the village clears out for one cup final and basically offer nothing other than a trip to the land that hope goes to die.

 

 

[Jason King]

7 minutes ago, GordonS said:

The biggest non-league senior play-off, between Cove Rangers and Spartans, drew 655 people for the second leg.

Because it was over after the first leg, if Auchinleck had won 4-0 in the first leg of the Scottish semi this season then there would have been diddly squit at the second leg.

Its not rocket science.