Junior football, what is the future?

[Cyclizine]

1 minute ago, gogsy said:

I believe the original plan years ago was the Tayside juniors were originally going with the North juniors when the Superleagues were formed but they lobbied against it, maybe someone can confirm?

I think that was the case - although there are ties between the Tayside clubs and the North clubs. There's a joint board that manages the Inter-regional Cup, although this is regionalised in the first instance. With the new road around Aberdeen now and A96/A9 duelling by 2025 (in theory...) then travel times will only be getting shorter. I wonder how many Tayside club players are cenral belt based and may not relish regular trips further north.

[Black & Red Socks]

The remaining ERJFA clubs (south of the Tay) could then be given the following options : 4. join the EoL at tier 7  or 8 as appropriate

OR

5. join the WRJFA  (might be preferable) for some Junior die-hards)

OR

6. a combination of both, with each club determining its own future (unhindered).

 

This would surely put an end to the East & North dilemmas/apparent 'stalemate' ?

 

 

 

Unless I misunderstand, your points 5 and 6 allow for geographical overlap between the WRSJFA and the EoSFL if the WRSJFA were to be in the Pyramid, much like the problematic overlap of current ERSJFA and EoSFL teams should the ERSJFA be brought into the Pyramid intact? Point 4 is the option that is clear and respects boundaries as would be necessary for the properly conceived growth of the current Pyramid.

Your North and Tayside suggestion appears a considered and workable solution but without the active support of those involved in each region would pretty much be one consigned to being a good idea that never sees the light of day.

 

 

[Robert James]

1 minute ago, gogsy said:

I believe the original plan years ago was the Tayside juniors were originally going with the North juniors when the Superleagues were formed but they lobbied against it, maybe someone can confirm?

You may well be correct, although I have no knowledge of this.

But life, times and football have moved on, and it is a solution for the pyramid, the north of Tayside juniors, and the  SJFA.  It also adds the element of Aberdeen & Dundee rivalries, which has always been present at SPFL level. 

Also, what prompted Montrose Roselea to move north voluntarily ?  

[Marten]

15 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Because none of the mad North of Tayside juniors want it? Which is a shame because the North with the exception of Nairn and Montrose is basically all Aberdeen teams.

I just don't get that, the big Tayside teams will still play each other, regardless whether the division is called the East or North Superleague. And what's so problematic about driving to Aberdeen? I've driven from Dundee to Aberdeen several times and it's quite an easy drive. Easier imo than driving to some of the West Lothian clubs.

[Cyclizine]

2 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Also, what prompted Montrose Roselea to move north voluntarily ?  

A mainly Aberdeen-based playing staff, I think. Montrose is five or ten miles closer to Dundee than Aberdeen, but the travel time is about the same.

[Robert James]

1 minute ago, Black & Red Socks said:

 

Unless I misunderstand, your points 5 and 6 allow for geographical overlap between the WRSJFA and the EoSFL if the WRSJFA were to be in the Pyramid, much like the problematic overlap of current ERSJFA and EoSFL teams should the ERSJFA be brought into the Pyramid intact? Much less so granted, but overlap none the less.

Your North and Tayside suggestion appears a considered and workable solution but without the active support of those involved in each region would pretty much be one consigned to being a good idea that never sees the light of day.

 

Overlap, "much less so granted".

My suggestion relates to an entirely different situation. The problem in the East is NOT an anti-junior stance, but it would be laughable to have 2 separate rival LEAGUES covering the same region, each having promotion play-off entitlements to the Lowland.

Overlapping INDIVIDUAL CLUBS, is theoretically not ideal, but it already exists. For example, Bonnyton Thistle should really be playing in the West junior league, whereas Kello Rovers should be in the SoSL.  And Berwick Rangers and Tweedmouth Rangers should both be playing in the English Leagues.   

 

[Black & Red Socks]

Overlap, "much less so granted".
My suggestion relates to an entirely different situation. The problem in the East is NOT an anti-junior stance, but it would be laughable to have 2 separate rival LEAGUES covering the same region, each having promotion play-off entitlements to the Lowland.
Overlapping INDIVIDUAL CLUBS, is theoretically not ideal, but it already exists. For example, Bonnyton Thistle should really be playing in the West junior league, whereas Kello Rovers should be in the SoSL.  And Berwick Rangers and Tweedmouth Rangers should both be playing in the English Leagues.   
 

Understood. I edited my post a little after thinking this. Historical overlaps are there, this is clear. However, in creating something new it doesn’t seem sensible to allow for the overlapping of clubs. Whitburn choosing to play in the WRSJFA and Bathgate Thistle choosing the EoSFL for instance. Where is the sense in that?

[Cyclizine]

2 minutes ago, Black & Red Socks said:

Understood. I edited my post a little after thinking this. Historical overlaps are there, this is clear. However, in creating something new it doesn’t seem sensible to allow for the overlapping of clubs. Whitburn choosing to play in the WRSJFA and Bathgate Thistle choosing the EoSFL for instance. Where is the sense in that?

Depends if the ultimate aim once a regional structure appears is to have fixed boundaries, where team numbers will fluctuate year-on-year (unless you have differing promotion/relegation slots) or if you have 'border regions' where clubs can be switched based on numbers each season. You could argue that e.g. West Lothian / Falkirk / Clacks / Stirling / Perthshire clubs (for example) could vary East / West / North year-on-year...

[Marten]

I'm just thinking about how a north pyramid structure could look like. I'm assuming the HL would then reduce to 16 clubs as that's the SFA's preference. That could mean that Fort William get relegated to the North Caledonian League which would become a 10 team league. Lossiemouth would join the North Superleague, which would become a 16 team league. With 33 north juniors (including Inverness City) and 16 Tayside juniors there could be 5 Tayside teams and 10 current NRJFA teams in the North Superleague (obviously you can debate about what's fair, but this example is for indicative purposes only).

The North Superleague would then consist of the following teams:

• Lossiemouth
• Banks O'Dee
• Bridge of Don
• Culter
• Montrose Roselea
• Nairn St. Ninian
• Dyce Juniors
• Hermes
• East End
• Colony Park
• Hall Russell United
• Lochee United
• Broughty Athletic
• Forfar West End
• Carnoustie Panmure
• Kirriemuir Thistle

Underneath that division there would be an 11 team Tayside league and the remaining 23 current NRJFA teams can form a 12 team First Division North and an 11 team Second Division. Champions of North Superleague &  NCL (if licensed) can then get promoted to the Highland League.

Now, whether or not all parties involved would like this and this would be realistic is a second, but I don't think this would be a bad set-up.

Edit: like Robert James suggests, there could be some movement from the north junior teams to the NCL to slightly correct the numbers rather than have a 10-team structure and a 50-team structure underneath the same league. Ultimately the amateur leagues can slot in below NCL, Division 2 & Tayside leagues as well to provide a proper pyramid all the way down.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Marten

[Robert James]

19 minutes ago, Marten said:

I just don't get that, the big Tayside teams will still play each other, regardless whether the division is called the East or North Superleague. And what's so problematic about driving to Aberdeen? I've driven from Dundee to Aberdeen several times and it's quite an easy drive. Easier imo than driving to some of the West Lothian clubs.

Agreed.

Form a North East Superleague asap. It would be a much stronger junior league.

It  would enable junior clubs like Spey Valley United, Burghead Thistle, and Inverness City (if they return from abeyance) to join the NCL, given balance to the NCL as a recognised Pyramid Feeder league in the north and west Highlands.

If the West juniors join the pyramid en bloc, as now appears possible, and having removed the East 'duplicating' leagues and the need to alter the HFL/SLL 'boundary', there would be an integrated, comprehensive, and truly national pyramid, for the benefit of Scottish football.

[Robert James]

13 minutes ago, Black & Red Socks said:

Understood. I edited my post a little after thinking this. Historical overlaps are there, this is clear. However, in creating something new it doesn’t seem sensible to allow for the overlapping of clubs. Whitburn choosing to play in the WRSJFA and Bathgate Thistle choosing the EoSFL for instance. Where is the sense in that?

Not ideal, but clubs choose between the TWO feeder leagues: East or West.

6 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

Depends if the ultimate aim once a regional structure appears is to have fixed boundaries, where team numbers will fluctuate year-on-year (unless you have differing promotion/relegation slots) or if you have 'border regions' where clubs can be switched based on numbers each season. You could argue that e.g. West Lothian / Falkirk / Clacks / Stirling / Perthshire clubs (for example) could vary East / West / North year-on-year...

Absolutely spot on.

Dare I say it, this is the situation in the English pyramid, where some overlapping exists to balance the size of the feeder leagues. Once established, the  English FA (annually) listens to appeals from clubs, if they disagree with the league they are placed in following promotion or relegation. Some clubs win their appeal, and some lose. The system works.

[Marten]

2 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Not ideal, but clubs choose between the TWO feeder leagues: East or West.

Absolutely spot on.

Dare I say it, this is the situation in the English pyramid, where some overlapping exists to balance the size of the feeder leagues. Once established, the  English FA (annually) listens to appeals from clubs, if they disagree with the league they are placed in following promotion or relegation. Some clubs win their appeal, and some lose. The system works.

It's worth noting though that the English FA only really listens to geographical arguments nowadays, they generally ignore historic loyalties.

[Black & Red Socks]

17 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

Depends if the ultimate aim once a regional structure appears is to have fixed boundaries, where team numbers will fluctuate year-on-year (unless you have differing promotion/relegation slots) or if you have 'border regions' where clubs can be switched based on numbers each season. You could argue that e.g. West Lothian / Falkirk / Clacks / Stirling / Perthshire clubs (for example) could vary East / West / North year-on-year...

Again, understood and wouldn't argue with what you say if necessity demanded switching between regions. However, at the outset teams should surely be placed in/merged into their 'proper' region (as point 4 of Robert James' post) and not given the choice (as points 5 and 6 suggest) as that might be a rather chaotic start to any sensible restructure.

[Robert James]

2 minutes ago, Marten said:

It's worth noting though that the English FA only really listens to geographical arguments nowadays, they generally ignore historic loyalties.

Mostly true in England  now, but is that necessarily a bad thing ? 'Traditional' rivalries or 'local' rivalries, or a combination of bothin Scotland, as suggested by Cyclizine above. 

[Marten]

4 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Mostly true in England  now, but is that necessarily a bad thing ? 'Traditional' rivalries or 'local' rivalries, or a combination of bothin Scotland, as suggested by Cyclizine above. 

I think it's a good thing tbh, as for quite a while I've been a strong advocate of getting rid of this artificial divide in non-league football.

Personally, I quite like the sound of giving East teams south of the Tay who really don't want to move to the EOS the chance of moving to the WRJFA so they are still in the pyramid. For the long term it's not ideal, but I think only a handful of (probably West Lothian only) teams will use that option. Just like in England, in the longer term I would assume the historic loyalties will slowly disappear and teams just want to play other teams their level in their region, so the regions can be redrawn to be geographically more accurate.

[AlanCamelonfan]

6 minutes ago, Marten said:

I think it's a good thing tbh, as for quite a while I've been a strong advocate of getting rid of this artificial divide in non-league football.

Personally, I quite like the sound of giving East teams south of the Tay who really don't want to move to the EOS the chance of moving to the WRJFA so they are still in the pyramid. For the long term it's not ideal, but I think only a handful of (probably West Lothian only) teams will use that option. Just like in England, in the longer term I would assume the historic loyalties will slowly disappear and teams just want to play other teams their level in their region, so the regions can be redrawn to be geographically more accurate.

Could be argued Dunipace did that historically in the west. Gareth alexander suggested to move to ersjfa but it was tradition however they moved to eosfl 

[Robert James]

4 minutes ago, Marten said:

I think it's a good thing tbh, as for quite a while I've been a strong advocate of getting rid of this artificial divide in non-league football.

Personally, I quite like the sound of giving East teams south of the Tay who really don't want to move to the EOS the chance of moving to the WRJFA so they are still in the pyramid. For the long term it's not ideal, but I think only a handful of (probably West Lothian only) teams will use that option. Just like in England, in the longer term I would assume the historic loyalties will slowly disappear and teams just want to play other teams their level in their region, so the regions can be redrawn to be geographically more accurate.

I agree with your further views.

Your suggested membership of a new North East League is enticing. It is however worth noting that membership of the Highland League requires clubs to have floodlights as well as an FA  licence.  As things stand,there are 2 SFA licensed clubs (outside the HFL) in the north namely: Banks O'Dee  juniors (who have floodlights), and Golspie Sutherland (NCL) who don't have lights).

 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

10 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I agree with your further views.

Your suggested membership of a new North East League is enticing. It is however worth noting that membership of the Highland League requires clubs to have floodlights as well as an FA  licence.  As things stand,there are 2 SFA licensed clubs (outside the HFL) in the north namely: Banks O'Dee  juniors (who have floodlights), and Golspie Sutherland (NCL) who don't have lights).

 

 

The distinction that the Highland League has had stricter criteria than the Lowland League is about to disappear. 

Main advantage of being in an sfa pyramid league is the ability to get licensed. Licensing now requires floodlights.

[Burnie_man]

Bathgate struggle to get fans for home games, they'd be lucky to take a tandem of fans to an away game from what I've seen of them over the last couple of years.

When we played them, Whitburn and Fauldhouse last season in the East Premier Juniors, there were between 120-170 at all 6 games, some were midweek. There were decent travelling supports from all four clubs. We need to get back to that.

Long term they surely should be wanting to play Bo'ness, Linlithgow, Camelon & Broxburn again regularly, as well as Nitten, Bonnyrigg, Penicuik, Musselburgh etc. It will take time now of course, but it's guaranteed never to happen if they remain in the Juniors.

[Marten]

10 minutes ago, gogsy said:

If that happens would they start at bottom tier in West? If they did that next season for example that could mean trips to Saltcoats, Ardeer, Muirkirk, Annbank, Lugar Boswell and Maybole for starters. Would it be fair to say the vast majority of the teams in the bottom West division wouldn't bring a travelling support of any significant number as well?

That's why I don't think many teams would actually go for that option, but at least they are offered an alternative if they are so desperate to stay in a "junior" league. Obviously, the WRJFA could decide to place them higher, but that's up to them and unless leagues get expanded, I can't see that being a popular option with teams that can lose out.