Junior football, what is the future?

[Clyde01]

Why do the East/West juniors need to come as a package deal. Can the West not join immediately at tier 6 and the remaining East juniors join the EOS or opt to stay separate.

Maybe some of the more progressive West juniors could form a WOSL at tier 6 and break away from the SJFA as happened in the East last year. Not as easy as there isn’t a ready made league to join but surely with some negotiation one could be formed without having to involve the SJFA.

[LongTimeLurker]

8 minutes ago, Clyde01 said:

Why do the East/West juniors need to come as a package deal....

...because there is no obvious need for Tom Johnston to still be employed, if they don't.

Edited April 26, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Sergeant Wilson]

6 minutes ago, Clyde01 said:

Why do the East/West juniors need to come as a package deal. Can the West not join immediately at tier 6 and the remaining East juniors join the EOS or opt to stay separate.

Maybe some of the more progressive West juniors could form a WOSL at tier 6 and break away from the SJFA as happened in the East last year. Not as easy as there isn’t a ready made league to join but surely with some negotiation one could be formed without having to involve the SJFA.

It was a bit easier in that there was an existing league to join.

[Clyde01]

It was a bit easier in that there was an existing league to join.

 

Could they join the SOS league? If moving in bulk then conferences could be set up from this seasons SOS and West junior premier.

 

As I mentioned in the EOS thread the SOS is out of place in terms of quality at tier 6 (imo). It is basically a Dumfries and Galloway local league that has planted itself in prime position in the pyramid through fortunate timing more than anything. By essentially making it a south west league instead through merging with the West juniors it would create a more equal pathway to what exists in the East. This would give two clear feeders (East and SW) into the lowland league.

[Sergeant Wilson]

11 minutes ago, Clyde01 said:

 

Could they join the SOS league? If moving in bulk then conferences could be set up from this seasons SOS and West junior premier.

 

As I mentioned in the EOS thread the SOS is out of place in terms of quality at tier 6 (imo). It is basically a Dumfries and Galloway local league that has planted itself in prime position in the pyramid through fortunate timing more than anything. By essentially making it a south west league instead through merging with the West juniors it would create a more equal pathway to what exists in the East. This would give two clear feeders (East and SW) into the lowland league.

They could, but I've never had the impression they are as welcoming as the EoS was.

[Salvo Montalbano]

Lager buffet?

Fixed that for you.

[Robert James]

9 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

They could, but I've never had the impression they are as welcoming as the EoS was.

Probably true about not being so welcoming as the EoS was. However, the closing date for applications to join the SoS is 30th April. Perhaps Cumnock, and some other juniors have already applied ? Unlikely, but  Scottish non league football  is never very transparent !

 

1 hour ago, glensmad said:

The SJFA AGM this year may be a little longer than the half-hour that it normally is.

Is there no mechanism within the SJFA, for clubs to put down a motion for consideration at the  2019 AGM ?  Or does the SJFA have an 'executive override', to prevent clubs from seeking a vote on something that the Management Committee/TJ  doesn't agree with ? 

 If however,  clubs do have the right to put down motions, and to vote on them, such a motion could  state something like :

  "We, the following WRJFA clubs....., , wish to be able to join the pyramid, without being bound by previous SJFA resolutions, which currently place the West Juniors in a position where  joining the pyramid depends upon the  ERJFA  (or the NRJFA),  joining the pyramid at the same time., Similarly, the West Juniors would also be able to join the pyramid, even if one, or both of these two Associations, do not join the pyramid at all.  We therefore request that this motion be put to a vote at this AGM."     

Probably a clumsily worded motion no doubt, but the intention would be to free West Junior clubs from being bound by decisions relating to the other two Associations.  It could possibly enable West clubs to move forward sooner, rather than later ?

 

[Dev]

3 hours ago, Clyde01 said:

 

Could they join the SOS league? If moving in bulk then conferences could be set up from this seasons SOS and West junior premier.

 

As I mentioned in the EOS thread the SOS is out of place in terms of quality at tier 6 (imo). It is basically a Dumfries and Galloway local league that has planted itself in prime position in the pyramid through fortunate timing more than anything. By essentially making it a south west league instead through merging with the West juniors it would create a more equal pathway to what exists in the East. This would give two clear feeders (East and SW) into the lowland league.

Didn't the Eos offer to help set up a WoS league last year?

[Glenconner]

26 minutes ago, Dev said:

Didn't the Eos offer to help set up a WoS league last year?

They did but it was pretty meaningless once the West voted to join the pyramid.

[Guest]

I don't think the eos would have an issue helping to set up and potentially aid those running a wos league for any of the junior clubs looking to get into the pyramid. 

It is sad that we are a year down the line and there has been no progress with this.

What appears to have happened when RP and IM attended the eos meeting is they displayed their lack of understanding regarding their own rules (LL boundary line) and almost a complete disregard for 39 clubs that play in their current structure. They were unable to answer basic questions and appear fixated on every other league changing their set up/rules to get the east juniors into the pyramid. (even though the sjfa were told by the sfa if the ersjfa split that would be impossible) 

Mr Johnston appears to have committed to an undeliverable mandate of 'all in or no one in' .... And even though the nrsjfa have turned down the chance to operate in the pyramid, he still pursues for the wrsjfa and ersjfa......this wasn't the mandate he was given by his member clubs. 

If only someone could ask the ersjfa clubs the same question regarding operating in the pyramid (not geographical divisions) as they asked the nrsjfa clubs and see if they were interested, maybe then the west would come over as is. (given the original mandate is already broken by the nrsjfa declining a place in the pyramid) 

I live in hope someone in charge of either the sfa or sjfa can make sensible decisions and we can't on with football, failing that clubs in the east and west can choose to move on their own...... 

[Sergeant Wilson]

56 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

 

I live in hope someone in charge of either the sfa or sjfa can make sensible decisions 

I was with you all the way apart from this. I knew from my own experience that football was infested with self serving dullards, but the degree of ignorance of any issues beyond their on bubble has astounded even me.

If I presented to a customer group with the lack of preparation they had I'd be absolutely humiliated, but you couldn't give any of them a red neck with a blowtorch.

[Arthurlie1981]

Mr Johnston appears to have committed to an undeliverable mandate of 'all in or no one in' .... And even though the nrsjfa have turned down the chance to operate in the pyramid, he still pursues for the wrsjfa and ersjfa......this wasn't the mandate he was given by his member clubs. 

If only someone could ask the ersjfa clubs the same question regarding operating in the pyramid (not geographical divisions) as they asked the nrsjfa clubs and see if they were interested, maybe then the west would come over as is. (given the original mandate is already broken by the nrsjfa declining a place in the pyramid) 

Agree with everything in your post apart from the mandate. That was the mandate he was given by the clubs. That was the option they chose. But that doesn’t preclude him as when the counter offer of the west to go in now being presented to west clubs. They may haves rejected it who knows but my suspicion is he thought they would take it and he loose a bargaining chip when it comes to the east.

Let’s be honest here. The west is the last area that is not part of the pyramid and contains an number of strong and well known clubs such as Bankies, Pollok, Talbot etc who would enhance the pyramid and the SJFA know that and are using this for their negations regarding the east. He knows the SFA want the west in but he is using the mandate to get what he wants.

Your question should be asked of the clubs and there is nothing to stop the SFA stepping in and asking it but I presume the majority must still want it as they could of had the ERJFA tell the SJFA that they were no longer interested as the NRJFA seem to have done.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, G4Mac said:

I don't think the eos would have an issue helping to set up and potentially aid those running a wos league for any of the junior clubs looking to get into the pyramid. 

It is sad that we are a year down the line and there has been no progress with this.

What appears to have happened when RP and IM attended the eos meeting is they displayed their lack of understanding regarding their own rules (LL boundary line) and almost a complete disregard for 39 clubs that play in their current structure. They were unable to answer basic questions and appear fixated on every other league changing their set up/rules to get the east juniors into the pyramid. (even though the sjfa were told by the sfa if the ersjfa split that would be impossible) 

Mr Johnston appears to have committed to an undeliverable mandate of 'all in or no one in' .... And even though the nrsjfa have turned down the chance to operate in the pyramid, he still pursues for the wrsjfa and ersjfa......this wasn't the mandate he was given by his member clubs. 

If only someone could ask the ersjfa clubs the same question regarding operating in the pyramid (not geographical divisions) as they asked the nrsjfa clubs and see if they were interested, maybe then the west would come over as is. (given the original mandate is already broken by the nrsjfa declining a place in the pyramid) 

I live in hope someone in charge of either the sfa or sjfa can make sensible decisions and we can't on with football, failing that clubs in the east and west can choose to move on their own...... 

16 of the current ERSJFA clubs are positioned to the north of the Tay Bridge dividing line between the Highland and Lowland League’s catchment areas and, so, fall within the Highland League’s catchment area. When, a year ago, they were asked to vote on their futures 68% of these clubs (11 out of 16 ) voluntarily voted to join the Pyramid i.e. the Highland League's catchment area. This is, perhaps, not so surprising given that ERSJFA clubs are used to playing NRSJFA clubs in competitive football already, and do so by choice. Those in favour included 7 out of the 10 likely North “Super” Division clubs such as Carnoustie Panmure, Dundee North End, Forfar West End, Kirriemuir Thistle, Luncarty, Scone Thistle and Tayport.         

19 current ERSJFA clubs (not including Glenrothes) are located to the south of the Tay Bridge and, so, fall within the Lowland League catchment area. When asked to vote on their futures a year ago 42% (8 out of 19 ) of the clubs voluntarily did not support joining the Pyramid. Three of the 9 likely South “Super” Division clubs did not support joining the Pyramid i.e. Pumpherston, Thornton Hibs and Whitburn.

The irony is that TJ knew the rules and regulations about the line through the Tay Bridge when he arranged for the SJFA clubs’ vote on whether or not to join the Pyramid and, of course, he made sure that the SJFA clubs were aware of what they were voting for, didn’t he? Or, there again, this may have slipped his mind at the time?

To summarise information kindly dug out previously by   FairWeatherFan:

  At the time when the Pyramid commenced it was planned that the integration of the ERSJFA clubs would be partly via a merger with the EoS, with the EoS being the Lead League, and the South of Tay Bridge ERSJFA clubs being absorbed into that league which would then feed into the Lowland League. Perhaps, now, those remaining ERSJFA clubs should revisit the situation and make long term decisions about their futures, now that they have a fuller picture about what went on when, allegedly, they were kept in the dark about the importance  of and the implications of the line through the Tay Bridge?

[LongTimeLurker]

Did the ERSJFA clubs know that a split format meant no tier 6 entry when they took part in the restructure survey? If Rod Petrie is correct in saying that the SJFA were informed of that a long time ago that could be interpreted as a decision against pyramid entry along the same lines as is reported to have happened with the NRSJFA.

[Guest]

According to RP and IM the sjfa were made aware that only a 16 team superleague in the West and East was acceptable to the sfa for pyramid entry. TJ hasn't once relayed this as far as I am aware to any part of the sjfa. The ersjfa clubs South of the tay would easily be consumed by the eosfl, the eosfl have said they would welcome this move. Why it can't happen I don't know. 

The sjfa mandate provided to TJ was for all associations at tier 6, the nrsjfa haven't committed, meaning that mandate is dead. The wrsjfa, in my opinion, have to do what's best for their clubs and form a wosfl and stop this current nonsensical approach which is delaying us having a competitive, progressive and fair non league set up in our country. 

Licensing though will undoubtedly be the next hurdle to overcome, another problem that appears surrounded by a smog of self  preservation. 

[LongTimeLurker]

Maybe worth pointing out here as well:

https://www.eosfl.com/

Entry Criteria and Application Forms for membership of the East of Scotland Football Association and the East of Scotland Football League can be accessed here and here and when complete should be submitted to -

leaguesecretary@eastofscotlandfa.co.uk

PLEASE ENSURE THAT YOU READ THE ENTRY CRITERIA BEFORE SUBMITTING AN APPLICATION FOR MEMBERSHIP.

 

The EoS league website still seems to be encouraging membership applications with no mention of March 31st any more.

[mcruic]

Some questions are pertinent at this juncture.

1) What do ERSJFA (south of Tay) teams get out of staying in a rump league devoid of many of its erstwhile leading teams, and having to undertake more trips north of the Tay?

2) What is the point of running  a sports club that doesn't want to play at a higher level?  The whole point of sport is to compete (and win).  Otherwise its not sport. Taking part is all very well, but the objective of a sports team is not (solely) to provide an outlet for people to play sports - it's surely also to allow them to (eventually) play competitively - which means winning, getting promoted, etc.  How many clubs would be formed with the initial objective of staying in the same league and playing the same teams forever?

3) What are "diehard" junior fans hanging on to when they say they would hate to see the "death" of the junior game?  They would still be watching the same clubs, but with some sense of belonging to the main scheme of things rather than playing in a closed shop year after year with no prospects of advancement.  For those who prescribe to the "big fish in little pond" idea, big junior teams could still be big fish in whatever pond they found themselves in (Lowland League, League 2, whatever).  Inverness and Ross County were both big fish in the Highland League - now look at them.  Surely it's better to be a big fish in the Championship than in the Highland League...

4) Perhaps most importantly - how come every other country in Europe can have a proper pyramid system and not Scotland?  Clubs can still "opt out" of the pyramid by choosing not to accept promotion within the pyramid system.  So I don't really understand this staying out of the pyramid because they don't want to play at a higher level with teams from outside their own wee local area.  The whole point of a pyramid is that it is gradually more and more localised the further you go down.  In effect, the juniors is a pyramid itself, without a top level.  All the regions were regionalised at the bottom level until recently also (the East still is).

Edited April 27, 2019 by mcruic

[gaz5]

Clubs can still "opt out" of the pyramid by choosing not to accept promotion within the pyramid system.

Just for clarity, you can't choose not to accept promotion if you earn it and meet the criteria for the next league up within the pyramid.

Clubs could choose not to get licensed if they never wanted promoted into the LL, and at present they could "throw" the LL playoff if they win the LL. But if/when automatic promotion comes, that's not an option.

You certainly can't "opt out" because you don't want to go up.

[Ginaro]

2 hours ago, mcruic said:

1) What do ERSJFA (south of Tay) teams get out of staying in a rump league devoid of many of its erstwhile leading teams, and having to undertake more trips north of the Tay?

2) What is the point of running  a sports club that doesn't want to play at a higher level?  The whole point of sport is to compete (and win).  Otherwise its not sport. Taking part is all very well, but the objective of a sports team is not (solely) to provide an outlet for people to play sports - it's surely also to allow them to (eventually) play competitively - which means winning, getting promoted, etc.  How many clubs would be formed with the initial objective of staying in the same league and playing the same teams forever?

3) What are "diehard" junior fans hanging on to when they say they would hate to see the "death" of the junior game?  They would still be watching the same clubs, but with some sense of belonging to the main scheme of things rather than playing in a closed shop year after year with no prospects of advancement.  For those who prescribe to the "big fish in little pond" idea, big junior teams could still be big fish in whatever pond they found themselves in (Lowland League, League 2, whatever).  Inverness and Ross County were both big fish in the Highland League - now look at them.  Surely it's better to be a big fish in the Championship than in the Highland League...

1. No idea. The trips Tayside are one of the reasons for clubs wanting to go to more local leagues next season, but that's just continuing to isolate yourself from the rest of Scottish football in the east. One of the questions near the start of this thread was, where do the Juniors see themselves in 5-10 years time - East Region clubs should be considering that question.
2. Junior clubs are happy with moving up/down the SJFA pyramid in their region, but the thought of there being a higher league than the Superleague that a few clubs might progress to seems to scare them...
3. People have been asking this question for the past ~23 months in this thread, but no one has given a proper answer. About the only tangible thing that would disappear is the Junior Cup, but that would simply be replaced by a non-league trophy, i.e. the South Region Challenge Cup. The actual Junior Cup trophy/name could be used if clubs wanted.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Ginaro

[GordonS]

Mother of fūcking God, how do these people progress within football or elsewhere? 

Have you never had a manager?

Surely we've all had the experience of cringing while a senior manager talks a load of shite, when they know you're much more knowledgeable than them and they should just pass the question to you.

That the SFA is led by a shower of self-serving ignorant blowhards should come as a surprise to no-one.