Jinky67 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 (edited) 2 hours ago, AJF said: I never asked you to your rebuttal could’ve been commenting on the examples I provided rather than give it the “that must’ve been painful” deflection. It’s a debate about his ability at the end of the day. You were happy with it clearly. Myself, I wasn’t convinced by him and if given the choice, I’d rather it was Hart we were coming up against next season instead of Schmeichel, simply because in the games I’ve seen Hart in against us he has struggled. We simply have differing opinions on the ability of a keeper. Bar the Sima one which is a non-story since it was a foul I genuinely can’t recall any of them without making an effort to watch them back so the mistakes can’t have been that significant, not sure what more you want from me than that tbf Edited July 13 by Jinky67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 (edited) 5 hours ago, AJF said: I think there were a few more than that. He flapped at a Helander headed goal at Ibrox, palmed a Lundstram shot straight into Cantwell’s path to score at Ibrox, got beat at his near post by Sakala at Celtic Park, and then rounded by him at Ibrox for him to score as well. That same game he came flying off his line in another incident that needed a header off the line from a defender to stop Cantwell scoring. Then even as recently as the Scottish cup final I think he was very suspect and got caught under the ball for the disallowed Sima goal. Raskin nudge got him out of jail though. Ok watched all of these back to give you a better answer Helander - good strong header back across the goalie, hardly flapped at it Cantwell - should have done better here and tried to put the shot at least behind or out of danger. Sakala - good finish actually takes it well and early. Genuinely surprised by these examples. I can think of an equal number of mistakes from Butland last season alone that were worse than most of these. Idahs goal in the 3-3 game, straight through him at the near post. O’Riley in the 2-1 game, again done at his near post from outside the box as well (if you think the Sakala one is a keeper mistake then this has to be too right?) In the same game a Maeda shot that goes straight through him which ended up offside and last but not least the Scottish Cup final which tops them all considering the significance of the game. The point I’m making is the mistakes Hart makes are no more frequent or worse in these games than some of the mistakes made by a keeper apparently heads and shoulders above him. Edited July 13 by Jinky67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 2 hours ago, Jinky67 said: Ok watched all of these back to give you a better answer Helander - good strong header back across the goalie, hardly flapped at it Cantwell - should have done better here and tried to put the shot at least behind or out of danger. Sakala - good finish actually takes it well and early. Genuinely surprised by these examples. I can think of an equal number of mistakes from Butland last season alone that were worse than most of these. Idahs goal in the 3-3 game, straight through him at the near post. O’Riley in the 2-1 game, again done at his near post from outside the box as well (if you think the Sakala one is a keeper mistake then this has to be too right?) In the same game a Maeda shot that goes straight through him which ended up offside and last but not least the Scottish Cup final which tops them all considering the significance of the game. The point I’m making is the mistakes Hart makes are no more frequent or worse in these games than some of the mistakes made by a keeper apparently heads and shoulders above him. There were another two examples as well you missed out with him rushing off his line and getting rounded by Sakala twice in the same game, one led to a goal, the other a goal line clearance while in no-man’s land. I was mostly poking fun at Joe’s prior advert career in my head and shoulders comment tbf, but I’d imagine most people can appreciate Butland was a superior keeper to Hart last season with him having been named in the team of the year. To end my involvement in a back and forth, I appreciate Hart was better than what came immediately before him at Celtic and had a good career overall, but his ability while here was not great despite a strong end to the season. He certainly brought other qualities with him though, but Celtic have had far better keepers than him before and they will be stronger in that department this season. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binos Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 Schmeichel is firmly on the way down 37 and at anderlecht last year 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 1 hour ago, AJF said: I was mostly poking fun at Joe’s prior advert career in my head and shoulders comment tbf, but I’d imagine most people can appreciate Butland was a superior keeper to Hart last season with him having been named in the team of the year. Does being in the team of the year allow you to brush past those numerous mistakes that helped your biggest rivals to a league and cup double? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 14 minutes ago, Jinky67 said: Does being in the team of the year allow you to brush past those numerous mistakes that helped your biggest rivals to a league and cup double? Obviously not. But my whole point has been around how I felt Hart was generally underwhelming overall for Celtic. It was yourself that pushed the Hart v Butland angle when I’d say it’s fairly clear who the better keeper, ability wise, was last season. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gannonball Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 22 hours ago, Grangemouth Bairn said: Celtic could play up here and win the league with an amateur goalie 21 hours ago, Grangemouth Bairn said: I could play in goal for you and you would still win the league. Heavy 'My Nan Could score vibes' about this. 11 hours ago, Insaintee said: No they couldn't and Bain and Barkas proved that Yeah exactly this. It's not as if we horsed the league last season either. Having a really good goalkeeper can often paint over other deficiencies (Forster pretty much covering for Lennon nearly in his entire tenure) but having a bad one usually means you aren't getting a title if chasing for one or relegation fodder if a bottom 6 team. 6 hours ago, Dons_1988 said: Is this a safe space to suggest Joe hart wasn’t an elite goalkeeper? He certainly hasn't been one for about a decade. I don't think any Celtic fan would claim he was with us as he would have been nowhere near us otherwise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dons_1988 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 1 hour ago, gannonball said: He certainly hasn't been one for about a decade. I don't think any Celtic fan would claim he was with us as he would have been nowhere near us otherwise. Nah I know that. I did think the send off he got from Celtic fans was a bit OTT though. My perception was always that he was a decent enough keeper for you, not amazing but an upgrade on the likes of barkas. Schmeichel would be better than hart IMO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sortmeout Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 On 12/07/2024 at 22:31, Grangemouth Bairn said: He’s at least 10 x better than Hart. Hart was pish. Celtic could play up here and win the league with an amateur goalie No they couldn’t. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavieCFC Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Big Oh away officially to away to Genk GL to him 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckets Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 If its true Celtic are getting 4 million for that boy Oh, that's probably the best bit of business they've done in a long time 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gannonball Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 7 hours ago, DavieCFC said: Big Oh away officially to away to Genk GL to him I would have been happy to see him on loan somewhere next season but can't really turn down a decent bid for him. We've had some terrible 'project' strikers over the years most of which I haven't rated but think he will have a decent enough career. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 On 13/07/2024 at 21:20, AJF said: Obviously not. But my whole point has been around how I felt Hart was generally underwhelming overall for Celtic. It was yourself that pushed the Hart v Butland angle when I’d say it’s fairly clear who the better keeper, ability wise, was last season. Went onto X this morning and this is the first thing I see 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jinky67 said: Went onto X this morning and this is the first thing I see I'll say it again, it's yourself that's pushing this whole Hart v Butland debate in order to deflect from the criticism Hart has been receiving. I'm completely happy with our current number 1. He saved us on a ridiculous number of occasions. ETA: Also, a lot of those clips are genuinely just clips of goals we've conceded rather than Butland being at fault. And you were telling me the examples I used of Hart were poor Edited July 15 by AJF 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 41 minutes ago, AJF said: I'll say it again, it's yourself that's pushing this whole Hart v Butland debate in order to deflect from the criticism Hart has been receiving. I'm completely happy with our current number 1. He saved us on a ridiculous number of occasions. ETA: Also, a lot of those clips are genuinely just clips of goals we've conceded rather than Butland being at fault. And you were telling me the examples I used of Hart were poor It’s not a Hart v Butland debate mate, its making a point that Butland makes just as many of the same errors as shown yet doesn’t get the same criticism despite his errors being equally frequent and having more significant consequence Yes some of these are genuinely good goals but many are balls he pushed back into play, flapping at some, getting beat way too easily at the near post quite often, getting rounded rather easily and way too many just going straight through him. So you can’t really criticise Hart which you are perfectly entitled to do and give Butland an easy ride of it. It’s a bit blinkered imo Anyway I just found the timing of the video funny considering what we were discussing, so felt it was worth the share. Edited July 15 by Jinky67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insaintee Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jinky67 said: Went onto X this morning and this is the first thing I see TBF I'm not sure that Butland is responsible for many of those goals This genuinely some of your worst work ever Edited July 15 by Insaintee 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insaintee Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 45 minutes ago, Jinky67 said: It’s not a Hart v Butland So you can’t really criticise Hart which you are perfectly entitled to do and give Butland an easy ride of it. It’s a bit blinkered imo If It's not a Hart V Butland debate then what is it? Of course he's entitled to criticise Hart and defend Butland. It's all about opinions and that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 46 minutes ago, Jinky67 said: It’s not a Hart v Butland debate mate, its making a point that Butland makes just as many of the same errors as shown yet doesn’t get the same criticism despite his errors being equally frequent and having more significant consequence Yes some of these are genuinely good goals but many are balls he pushed back into play, flapping at some, getting beat way too easily at the near post quite often, getting rounded rather easily and way too many just going straight through him. So you can’t really criticise Hart which you are perfectly entitled to do and give Butland an easy ride of it. It’s a bit blinkered imo Anyway I just found the timing of the video funny considering what we were discussing, so felt it was worth the share. Butland gets criticism when warranted (you'll see my comments about him in the threads for the 3-3 game at Ibrox and the cup final as examples of this), so I genuinely don't feel it's a case of him getting an easy ride when he makes a mistake. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 2 hours ago, Insaintee said: TBF I'm not sure that Butland is responsible for many of those goals This genuinely some of your worst work ever I can’t take credit for the video, I’m also pretty sure I said there are a lot of good goals in here amongst the howlers. Reading my post fully would have helped here 2 hours ago, Insaintee said: If It's not a Hart V Butland debate then what is it? Of course he's entitled to criticise Hart and defend Butland. It's all about opinions and that. Didn’t I just say what it was? Underpins what I said above 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinky67 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 2 hours ago, AJF said: Butland gets criticism when warranted (you'll see my comments about him in the threads for the 3-3 game at Ibrox and the cup final as examples of this), so I genuinely don't feel it's a case of him getting an easy ride when he makes a mistake. So if Hart makes as little or indeed fewer mistakes in these games than Butland does why is he subject to a higher level of criticism from you? These mistakes cost you points and trophies, big points also in big moments of the season. You can just say you dont like the guy, that’s ok too Edited July 15 by Jinky67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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