AL-FFC Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 32 minutes ago, pandarilla said: There's so much wrong with this post it's difficult to know where to begin. In what way like i say its depends on your perspective i mean everyone knows that you need to be a serious right wing f**kwit to idolise them but its a reminder of the past and of a time if there was no memorials there who is there to ask questions or do you ignore it and bury your head in the sand and pretend it didnt happen. As has been posted as well depends on your take on William Wallace to us he's a national hero to someone english he's a murderer one mans hero is another man's villain. What about statues of Bomber Harris, Winston Churchill what merits a statue and where is the line drawn for him to be worthy of one ? With removing them your removing History and pretending it didnt happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 In what way like i say its depends on your perspective i mean everyone knows that you need to be a serious right wing f**kwit to idolise them but its a reminder of the past and of a time if there was no memorials there who is there to ask questions or do you ignore it and bury your head in the sand and pretend it didnt happen. As has been posted as well depends on your take on William Wallace to us he's a national hero to someone english he's a murderer one mans hero is another man's villain. What about statues of Bomber Harris, Winston Churchill what merits a statue and where is the line drawn for him to be worthy of one ? With removing them your removing History and pretending it didnt happen. It's been pointed out numerous times that the context for the statue matters greatly. These controversial characters that you name are being honoured for something separate from their contemporary controversy. Nelson is being acknowledged for a major naval victory etc. The civil war statues were often only put up due to the reemergence of white nationalist ideals. They are inextricably linked to a fight that was (more port less) trying to maintain slavery. There needs to be more discussion, and I'm not advocating pulling down all statues. But throwing in that Mandela was a terrorist (technically true, of course) doesn't help the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 36 minutes ago, sjc said: Very good points. That said, where would a Stalin statue be appropriately placed? WWII - good guy..... The rest of the time an utter c**t! The obvious response to that would be to ask why you would want to erect a statue of Stalin in 2017. If it was to commemorate something that happened in the war, you would expect it to have already been built a while ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 20 minutes ago, Jmothecat2 said: Who exactly has Nelson as an important part of their identity? David Sheppard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Jackie Moon said: With removing them your removing History and pretending it didnt happen. Lots of important people and events have no monuments yet are remembered. That's a silly argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 1 hour ago, dorlomin said: David Sheppard John Noakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 1 hour ago, craigkillie said: The obvious response to that would be to ask why you would want to erect a statue of Stalin in 2017. If it was to commemorate something that happened in the war, you would expect it to have already been built a while ago. I personally wouldn't as i was just playing devils advocate but I'm sure I read recently that some former Soviet states are rebuilding Lenin statues that were pulled down after the wall came down. I'm sure there's a few (misguided) people that want the statues of Stalin replaced that were pulled down circa 1953. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully Wee Villa Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Take down the statues of Confederates, put up statues of great lads like Lenin, Mandela and Louverture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Take down the statues of Confederates, put up statues of great lads like Lenin, Mandela and Louverture. Name dropping big Toussainte Louverture are we?Check you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully Wee Villa Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 He was like a father to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 He was like a father to me. CLR James's book on him still one of the greatest books I've ever read. Heartbreaking. What a top boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 3 hours ago, Bully Wee Villa said: Take down the statues of Confederates, put up statues of great lads like Lenin, Mandela and Louverture. Disagree about Lenin, he was as brutal as Stalin but more skilled at deflecting blame and appealing to the intelligentsia.. I'd add Thomas Paine and Malcolm X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Disagree about Lenin, he was as brutal as Stalin but more skilled at deflecting blame and appealing to the intelligentsia.. I'd add Thomas Paine and Malcolm X. As brutal?Surely just in terms of numbers killed he's not. Unless you're blaming the civil war entirely on Lenin - which would be harsh in the extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, pandarilla said: As brutal? Surely just in terms of numbers killed he's not. Unless you're blaming the civil war entirely on Lenin - which would be harsh in the extreme. Stalin ruled for much longer, and was probably mad, but the tactics were the same. The idea of Lenin as a cuddly idealist only survives because he died early on and he was an educated chap. He set up the totalitarian ethics that allowed Stalin to smoothly take over and carry them on. Quote "Comrades! The kulak uprising in your five districts must be crushed without pity ... You must make example of these people. (1) Hang (I mean hang publicly, so that people see it) at least 100 kulaks, rich b*****ds, and known bloodsuckers. (2) Publish their names. (3) Seize all their grain. (4) Single out the hostages per my instructions in yesterday's telegram. Do all this so that for miles around people see it all, understand it, tremble, and tell themselves that we are killing the bloodthirsty kulaks and that we will continue to do so ... Yours, Lenin. P.S. Find tougher people." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 I'm not sure 'not being as bad as Stalin' is the equivalent to 'cuddly'. He also saw that Stalin was a fucking nutter did he not? During his last few days or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully Wee Villa Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 He saved lives by withdrawing them from World War One. It was always going to be a bit hangy and shooty in the early years but he would have created a Socialist Utopia if he'd survived. He was sum bwai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 He saved lives by withdrawing them from World War One. It was always going to be a bit hangy and shooty in the early years but he would have created a Socialist Utopia if he'd survived. He was sum bwai. Hangy and looty is genius. What a time that was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer (Raconteur) Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 8 minutes ago, pandarilla said: Hangy and looty is genius. What a time that was. The missing dwarves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tongue_tied_danny Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 5 hours ago, sjc said: I personally wouldn't as i was just playing devils advocate but I'm sure I read recently that some former Soviet states are rebuilding Lenin statues that were pulled down after the wall came down. I'm sure there's a few (misguided) people that want the statues of Stalin replaced that were pulled down circa 1953. There has been recent controversy over a statue of Engels in Manchester. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/19/manchester-soviet-statue-engels-ukrainians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 1 hour ago, tongue_tied_danny said: There has been recent controversy over a statue of Engels in Manchester. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/19/manchester-soviet-statue-engels-ukrainians Good article. He gives a well balanced response to something he objects to. Great find. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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