A Photographic History Of Scottish Football

[kennie makevin]

2 hours ago, Piquet said:

I agree fully with the bolded part above.  However, the Design of the Stadium, it's age and poor suitability together with the "Event Management" contributed greatly to the Death Toll 

If the fans had been adequately segregated and if there had been adequate escape routes from the terrace, a lot fewer, if any would have been killed ..

 

 

If a group of football supporters had just managed to behave like normal civilised human beings then nobody would have been killed.  Ever thought of that ??

[Piquet]

22 minutes ago, kennie makevin said:

If a group of football supporters had just managed to behave like normal civilised human beings then nobody would have been killed.  Ever thought of that ??

Oh yes, but as both of us know, in any reasonably sized group of Football Supporters, there'll always be a few bad'uns. 

And a few, unfortunately, is all that's needed to spark something off. 

[Piquet]

3 hours ago, Molotov said:

But that’s not proof that was a designated Liverpool section.

If it was a Liverpool section then the crowd would have surely used the free space? I don’t know for sure. 

Over 61,000 at that final were Roma fans.

In 1977 when Liverpool won their first European Cup 25,000 scousers were in attendance. I think only 8,000 reds were at the 1984 final. 

It’s entirely feasible that section was left open as some form of segregation barrier between supporters.

 

 

 

That area is low and in the corner, usually one of the last areas to be filled. There are a few dozen people there, up the back and the terrace above that section is full. That would seem to contradict your segregation theory.

[Molotov]

57 minutes ago, Piquet said:

That area is low and in the corner, usually one of the last areas to be filled. There are a few dozen people there, up the back and the terrace above that section is full. That would seem to contradict your segregation theory.

Perhaps.

But given Liverpool had 25,000 in that stadium in Rome in 1977 but only had 8,000 in 1984 I’d say that it’s highly unlikely that they never sold their total allocation. 

Let’s agree to disagree. 

[ScottyDee1893]

4 hours ago, Molotov said:

Jings - that’s 40 years ago now. 

It’s possible that United may have gone on to win the trophy that season but for that referee in the semifinal.
 

What a tale that would have been for their supporters.

 

 

Being a Dundee fan I'll no doubt be accused of bias but there were no dubious decisions in the return leg in Roma that resulted in United's exit. It was proven that the ref did accept something from Roma beforehand but a lot of United fans will agree that it wasn't down to the ref that they lost, in fact they had a couple of opportunities to score early on to go 3-0 up om aggregate but spurned them.

[Molotov]

18 minutes ago, ScottyDee1893 said:

Being a Dundee fan I'll no doubt be accused of bias but there were no dubious decisions in the return leg in Roma that resulted in United's exit. It was proven that the ref did accept something from Roma beforehand but a lot of United fans will agree that it wasn't down to the ref that they lost, in fact they had a couple of opportunities to score early on to go 3-0 up om aggregate but spurned them.

Possibly. We will never know unless an independent referee would  review both games. 
John Holt has his opinion here:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/liverpool-vs-roma-champions-league-dundee-united-1984-bribe-cheat-final-a8318431.html

Walter Smith his view here (bit different to Holt):

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5648965/amp/The-extraordinary-story-Roma-shattered-Dundee-Uniteds-European-Cup-dream-1984.html
 

 

 

 

[Molotov]

Iconic photo:

Jim should have decked the cnut.

[Eednud]

It’s February 29 and Scotland has only played 1 full international on this day. A 1-1 draw in a Friendly with Slovenia in Koper in 2012.

 

[PossilYM]

On 24/02/2024 at 07:14, Monkey Tennis said:

I think I'm right in saying that even the all conquering Celtic side of 1966/67 averaged about 31,000 that season.  The previous season, they averaged just 24,000.  Two years earlier, they averaged 18,000, with Hearts, Hibs and Dundee not too far behind.

That's also a big factor in the separation that emerged between the OF and the rest.  Their gates tended to be bigger than the other sides', but not massively so until the all seated, season ticket era.  Changes in consumer behaviour have played a part.

1967 working class Scotland 

"Maw gonnae take oot hire purchase so i can go and watch the fitba".

Can't really think of anything in 2024 that would explain the shock in the average Scottish household of 1967 of a statement like that.

[Piquet]

On 28/02/2024 at 17:53, Molotov said:

Perhaps.

But given Liverpool had 25,000 in that stadium in Rome in 1977 but only had 8,000 in 1984 I’d say that it’s highly unlikely that they never sold their total allocation. 

Let’s agree to disagree. 

I can't understand your logic. You seem to be saying that the fact that there were fewer LFC fans at the '84 game than the '77 game shows that they sold their full allocation. 

The attendance at the game was 69,693, nearly 10,000 short of the then record attendance. That would seem to indicate that there were a substantial amount of unsold tickets. 

One possible explanation for this is that some tickets of an allocation were not sold and not released back to UEFA. Roma were unlikely to have any unsold tickets, particularly since the game was at their home pitch. 

Which brings us back to my initial statement. LFC didn't return their unsold tickets to stop them filling into the hands of Roma fans. 

Edited February 29 by Piquet

[Dundee Hibernian]

On 28/02/2024 at 12:13, Eednud said:

On the last day of February 1914 Arbroath lost 0-3 at home to Forfar Athletic in a Central League match. Forfar jerseys were blue and black hoops back then. Picture from https://www.arbroatharchive.co.uk/matchdetails.php?id=3195

I find this type of old photograph fascinating: they often look, as in this case, as though someone has drawn on them in an attempt to improve clarity. 

On 28/02/2024 at 18:09, ScottyDee1893 said:

Being a Dundee fan I'll no doubt be accused of bias but there were no dubious decisions in the return leg in Roma that resulted in United's exit. It was proven that the ref did accept something from Roma beforehand but a lot of United fans will agree that it wasn't down to the ref that they lost, in fact they had a couple of opportunities to score early on to go 3-0 up om aggregate but spurned them.

We'll never know for certain, but I'd tend to agree with you. Ralph Milne certainly passed up on an early chance which he'd normally have netted easily, and I can't recall any really contentious decisions. 

[Molotov]

1 hour ago, Piquet said:

LFC didn't return their unsold tickets to stop them filling into the hands of Roma fans. 

But so far you have not provided any official evidence from LFC or UEFA that this actually happened. Until you do it’s just a theory you are pushing. Does it really matter. 

[Dundee Hibernian]

Vale of Leven won the Scottish Cup three seasons in a row, from 1877 to 1879, their last win a replay walkover as Rangers took the huff at a refereeing decision in the first match. Vale forward JC Baird seems to have had his moustache ripped off for some reason, and is being consoled by Alex McLintock, a defender who Burnley later converted into a goalkeeper, such changes not being too unusual in those days. 

When Dumbarton won the Scottish Cup in 1883, James McAulay was goalkeeper in the first match, but a forward in the replay.

Vale of Leven themselves lost out a Cup Final replay in 1884, by a walkover, to Queens Park, as they couldn't raise a team due to injuries sustained in the first match. The Spiders kicked off and ran the ball into the goal unopposed, and were awarded the trophy for the seventh time. They also reached the FA Cup Final the same season.

[HibeeJibee]

21 hours ago, Eednud said:

It’s February 29 and Scotland has only played 1 full international on this day. A 1-1 draw in a Friendly with Slovenia in Koper in 2012.
 

1x B:



     



1x Ams:





1x U21:





1x 'League':

Edited February 29 by HibeeJibee

[bluearmyfaction]

10 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

 

When Dumbarton won the Scottish Cup in 1883, James McAulay was goalkeeper in the first match, but a forward in the replay.

 

Vale of Leven themselves lost out a Cup Final replay in 1884, by a walkover, to Queens Park, as they couldn't raise a team due to injuries sustained in the first match. The Spiders kicked off and ran the ball into the goal unopposed, and were awarded the trophy for the seventh time. They also reached the FA Cup Final the same season.

The goalie/forward thing happened in the 1875 FA Cup final as well - Charles Farmer of the Old Etonians switching forward after the Light Blues needed to change four players from the original game with the Royal Engineers.  They were a bit more cavalier with positional exclusivity back then.  Indeed goal was the standard place to put injured players to keep them out of the way.  And the only goal the Etonians conceded on the way to the final was when Farmer had swapped out of goal with a team-mate temporarily in a first round replay against the Swifts.

(On the Swifts, anyone remember Football Family Robinson from Roy of the Rovers/Tiger?  About a team where everyone was from the Robinson family?  The Swifts were a bit like that - they had anything up to five of the Bambridge brothers playing.  When the Bambridges retired in the late 1880s, the team pretty much vanished.  Despite being one of the strongest in the south.)

There was another reason why Vale did not turn up in 1884 - bereavement.  Right-back John Forbes lost his mother earlier that week and had a funeral to attend.   Queen's Park instead played Third Lanark at Cathkin Park, which had already had temporary grandstands put up, and won 4–1.

But there was some blame put on Queen's Park too...

 

(Glasgow Evening Post, 22 Feb)

[Molotov]

[Bogbrush1903]

On 28/02/2024 at 18:34, Molotov said:

Possibly. We will never know unless an independent referee would  review both games. 
John Holt has his opinion here:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/liverpool-vs-roma-champions-league-dundee-united-1984-bribe-cheat-final-a8318431.html

Walter Smith his view here (bit different to Holt):

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5648965/amp/The-extraordinary-story-Roma-shattered-Dundee-Uniteds-European-Cup-dream-1984.html
 

 

 

 

I've watched the whole match twice in the last ten years from the BBC coverage at the time, and United played very poorly, Ralph Milne in particular lost his nerve and should've had United 1-0 up.

I didn't think Vautrot made any obvious errors in favouring the home team and the penalty seemed legitimate.

I just think United couldn't cope in the febrile atmosphere and the afternoon kick off didn't help with regards temperature.

Perhaps Vautrot would've revealed himself had Milne scored but it was obvious from early in the game that he wouldn't require any intervention.

[Molotov]

[Molotov]

[Molotov]