What is the point of Labour ?

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, BerwickMad said:

What a nice chap.

There are MPs and others who have worked alongside Corbyn for decades and have never previously accused him of anti-Semitism but are now accusing him of anti-Semitism.  Don’t you find that strange?

What do you think their real motivation may be?

 

 

[sjc]

Even a dye in the wool Socialist like Gordon Brown knew that "old" Labour wasn't/isn't electable and that Blair moving them to the centre ground, thus appealing to the floating Liberal and Tory voters was the way forward for them.

The Party seems to be torn between old Labour and the modernist Blairite Labour. It's telling that they can't steal a march on an utterly shambolic Tory Government.

[tirso]

1 hour ago, BerwickMad said:

I don’t know how people can’t comprehend a political position between ‘Tory’ and Corbyn Labour.

Don’t get me wrong, centrists, centre left, social democrats or whatever you want to call them aren’t exactly doing a great job of offering anything beyond opposition to things at the moment, but it’s partly down to our political system.

You get Centre-left politicians who people desperately try and label as red tories or neo-liberals who back higher spending on public services, higher taxes on corporations and the rich and more regulation to achieve a fairer society for example. You can argue that they don’t have the answers for todays world, but to deny they exist? Hmm. More of a political tactic than anything. Owen Jones is bad for it. Constantly attacking ‘centrists’, but expecting them to fall in line come election time and attacking them for even thinking about splitting.

You can also support many of the current Labour leaderships domestic policies while being appalled by the anti-semitism and anti-West shit.
 

Genuinely i'm coming at this from a point of wanting to learn.  What precisely is it that Corbyn has done that is anti-Semitic?

I'm not in favour, as if it needs said, of anti Semtism.   what is that he has done?  I've not read anything more than rhetoric on this.  Granted, i'm not reading about this every day but it seems a smear to me.  But i'm totally open to being persuaded.

 

I mean Boris Johnson says something dodgy about the Burkhas.  We can discuss that and there's debates about whether it's racism or not.  Yes or no, there's something tangible to be debated.  I've yet to see what it is Corbyn has said that warrants being called an "Anti Semite" by Margaret Hodge.

There are loads of articles about "how I can't be part of this in the Labour party".  Without ever stating what the "this" is.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by tirso

[sjc]

1 minute ago, tirso said:

Genuinely i'm coming at this from a point of wanting to learn.  What is precisely that Corbyn has done that is anti-Semitic?

I'm not in favour, as if it needs said, of anti Semtism.   what is that he has done?  I've not read anything more than rhetoric on this.  Granted, i'm not reading about this every day but it seems a smear to me.  But i'm totally open to being persuaded.

 

I mean Boris Johnson says somegthing dodgy about the Burkhas.  We can discuss that and there's debates about whether it's racism or not.  Yes or no, there's something tangible to be debated.  I've yet to see what it is Corbyn has said that warrants being called an "Anti Semite" by Margaret Hodge.

 

 

Is he not just seemed to be Pro Palestinian, thus by some peoples reckoning, anti Israeli?

[BerwickMad]

There are MPs and others who have worked alongside Corbyn for decades and have never previously accused him of anti-Semitism but are now accusing him of anti-Semitism.  Don’t you find that strange?
What do you think their real motivation may be?
 
 

I only know of Margaret Hodge off the top of my head who has accused him directly of being an anti-Semite. She’s clearly motivated in that she wants rid of him, but that doesn’t mean concerns should be dismissed. He’s had questions to answer over various things he’s said or done. He also appeases anti-semites which is why many of them support him. Don’t tell me that little ‘leaked’ part of a pulled statement wasn’t aimed to appeal to the vile scumbags from groups like JVL outside the NEC meeting earlier in the week.

It’s not just about Corbyn though. There’s clear anti-semitism in the Labour Party and I see it at local level and all over social media. If people talked about any other minority group the way they do about Jews, they’d be protesting against it themselves.

You’ll probably argue that some of the shite these scumbags come out with isn’t anti-semitism, but whatever the definition, it’s still pretty repulsive. As is the constant abusive attacks at anyone not following the leader.

Anyway, my point is that politics isn’t as black and white as Corbynista or Tory. There’s a pretty obvious centre-left that isn’t ‘Red-Tory’.

[JamieThomas]

8 minutes ago, BerwickMad said:

 There’s a pretty obvious centre-left that isn’t ‘Red-Tory’.

Hopefully they find a fourth person soon so they can carpool properly.

[sjc]

4 minutes ago, BerwickMad said:

I only know of Margaret Hodge off the top of my head who has accused him directly of being an anti-Semite. She’s clearly motivated in that she wants rid of him, but that doesn’t mean concerns should be dismissed. He’s had questions to answer over various things he’s said or done. He also appeases anti-semites which is why many of them support him. Don’t tell me that little ‘leaked’ part of a pulled statement wasn’t aimed to appeal to the vile scumbags from groups like JVL outside the NEC meeting earlier in the week.

It’s not just about Corbyn though. There’s clear anti-semitism in the Labour Party and I see it at local level and all over social media. If people talked about any other minority group the way they do about Jews, they’d be protesting against it themselves.

You’ll probably argue that some of the shite these scumbags come out with isn’t anti-semitism, but whatever the definition, it’s still pretty repulsive. As is the constant abusive attacks at anyone not following the leader.

Anyway, my point is that politics isn’t as black and white as Corbynista or Tory. There’s a pretty obvious centre-left that isn’t ‘Red-Tory’.

It's similar to the infighting that brought down Majors Tory Government in the 90's (that and people in general wanting change). Europe was the battle ground with the Tories (which brought about UKIP and the referendum). Labour are now fighting over what was once their core principles and those of the modernised version of the Party.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, sjc said:

 Labour are now fighting over what was once their core principles and right wing c***s who should be nowhere near Labour in the first place.

FTFY

[Detournement]

2 hours ago, BerwickMad said:

Well I could list probably around 200 of the PLP who get these labels. Yvette Cooper I’ll go with.

Yvette Cooper.

Voted for the Iraq War. Voted against inquiries into the Iraq War. Voted for war in Libya. Voted for war in Syria.

Vote for Foundation Hospitals and Trusts. Abstained on the Welfare Bill.

Good choice.

[sjc]

5 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

FTFY

Far be it for me to defend them but I'd hardly call them right wingers.......unless you're comparing them to Corbyn or McDonnell? 

I'm no fan of his but there's a reason why Blair won 3 General Elections for Labour.....

 

[Granny Danger]

12 minutes ago, sjc said:

Far be it for me to defend them but I'd hardly call them right wingers.......unless you're comparing them to Corbyn or McDonnell? 

I'm no fan of his but there's a reason why Blair won 3 General Elections for Labour.....

 

That post makes no sense.  

[sjc]

1 minute ago, Granny Danger said:

That post makes no sense.  

How hard is it to comprehend that Corbyn & McDonnell are so far to the left that anyone else within the Party appears right wing?

Labour under Blair moved to the centre political ground, sometimes centre left , sometimes centre right. Hardly right wing.

Taking Labour back to their principles of old brings about too many memories for those old enough to remember the 70s for them to be elected imo.

[Detournement]

7 minutes ago, sjc said:

 

I'm no fan of his but there's a reason why Blair won 3 General Elections for Labour.....

 

The Tories were completely fucked by that point. 1997 was a freebie. And after that he beat Willie Hague and Michael Howard. It took Cameron coming in with a PR blitz (hugging hoodies, visiting polar bears and creating the Big Society) and a global recession to make them electable and they still couldn't win a majority.

Blair and Brown clearly did some good things domestically but they did it in a manner which could be easily reserved by the next lot of Tories. They created a low pay and flexible economy and offset it with benefits which worked ok until benefits got slashed. Brown and Darling coped with the crash well but it was irrelevant as Osborne launched ideological austerity and completely destroyed the economy for the vast majority of people. They had a free hand to build a society fit for the 21st century and instead created a system which is driving us back to 19th century levels of inequality. Labour governments have to represent the interests of working class people against capital. They tried to work in favour of both despite the fact that capital doesn't need any help in the long run. Their achievements turned out to be built on sand and they actually built the privatisation and outsourcing Trojan horses that the Tories are using to wreck the NHS, education and other services in England.

We don't need a moderate government. We need a radical government which will redistribute from the people who have benefited from 40 years of Thatcherism to those who have suffered under it. We need a government that will build social structures which will last beyond their defeat in the manner of the Atlee government. There is not a chance that Umunna, Cooper, Kendall etc are either willing or able to do it.

 

 

 

[Granny Danger]

3 minutes ago, sjc said:

How hard is it to comprehend that Corbyn & McDonnell are so far to the left that anyone else within the Party appears right wing?

Labour under Blair moved to the centre political ground, sometimes centre left , sometimes centre right. Hardly right wing.

Taking Labour back to their principles of old brings about too many memories for those old enough to remember the 70s for them to be elected imo.

In the largest part of the U.K., the controlling part in electoral terms, people have a binary choice due to an outdated FPTP voting system.

Within that system people vote for one of two options.

Critics, including the overwhelmingly majority of the PLP who are firmly on the right, said that Corbyn could never become PM.  Despite this Labour are neck and neck with the Tories in the polls.  That is what there is a concerted effort to attack Corbyn; a highly organised concerted attack.  Just imagine electing a government headed by a socialist!!!!

 

[sjc]

1 minute ago, Detournement said:

The Tories were completely fucked by that point. 1997 was a freebie. And after that he beat Willie Hague and Michael Howard. It took Cameron coming in with a PR blitz (hugging hoodies, visiting polar bears and creating the Big Society) and a global recession to make them electable and they still couldn't win a majority.

Blair and Brown clearly did some good things domestically but they did it in a manner which could be easily reserved by the next lot of Tories. They created a low pay and flexible economy and offset it with benefits which worked ok until benefits got slashed. Brown and Darling coped with the crash well but it was irrelevant as Osborne launched ideological austerity and completely destroyed the economy for the vast majority of people. They had a free hand to build a society fit for the 21st century and instead created a system which is driving us back to 19th century levels of inequality. Labour governments have to represent the interests of working class people against capital. They tried to work in favour of both despite the fact that capital doesn't need any help in the long run. Their achievements turned out to be built on sand and they actually built the privatisation and outsourcing Trojan horses that the Tories are using to wreck the NHS, education and other services in England.

We don't need a moderate government. We need a radical government which will redistribute from the people who have benefited from 40 years of Thatcherism to those who have suffered under it. We need a government that will build social structures which will last beyond their defeat in the manner of the Atlee government. There is not a chance that Umunna, Cooper, Kendall etc are either willing or able to do it.

 

 

 

The Country was also a shambles in 83 under Thatcher yet she still won by a landslide. Saying this was purely down the the Falklands War is a myth. The truth was down to who was the alternative vote.

Blaming Thatcher for all today's ills also completely ignores the fact that the malaise in British industry set in  around 1870 and that this was recognised back in the 1930s.

Redistribution of wealth doesn't work btw.

[sjc]

3 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

In the largest part of the U.K., the controlling part in electoral terms, people have a binary choice due to an outdated FPTP voting system.

Within that system people vote for one of two options.

Critics, including the overwhelmingly majority of the PLP who are firmly on the right, said that Corbyn could never become PM.  Despite this Labour are neck and neck with the Tories in the polls.  That is what there is a concerted effort to attack Corbyn; a highly organised concerted attack.  Just imagine electing a government headed by a socialist!!!!

 

Neil Kinnock was also neck and neck in the Polls with (a similarly shambolic) Tory Government.......

[welshbairn]

15 minutes ago, sjc said:

Neil Kinnock was also neck and neck in the Polls with (a similarly shambolic) Tory Government.......

John Major and Ken Clarke had managed to recover the economy from the disaster left them by Norman Lamont and Thatcher before Blair won. How Kinnock fucked his chance up was unbelievable.

Edited September 7, 2018 by welshbairn

[Detournement]

22 minutes ago, sjc said:

 

Redistribution of wealth doesn't work btw

You better tell all the countries who practice it ie near enough every single country.

[sjc]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

You better tell all the countries who practice it ie near enough every single country.

By taxing the rich "til the pip squeaks" you mean? If so, that failed in the 70s and I can't think of any progressive Country that does.

[sjc]

13 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

John Major and Ken Clarke had managed to recover the economy from the disaster left them by Norman Lamont and Thatcher before Blair won. How Kinnock fucked his chance up was unbelievable.

Clarke came after the May 92 election. Lamont was in charge for the European Monetary Union fiasco in late 1992.

Agree that Major & Clarke stabilised the economy thereafter though.

I think Kinnock losing that election highlights that there's an entire generation of voters that don't trust "old" Labour after the 1970s. 83, 92 and now with Corbyn being unable to pull away from a Brexit divided Government in disarray kind of points to this imo.