What is the point of Labour ?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The PR led to the Nazis argument is genuinely one of the most inaccurate pieces of pish ever.

[BFTD]

• The Lib Dems could announce they've inherited unlimited wealth and would give it to the nation if elected, and they'd still lose. Anyone over 30 would rightly assume they'd meekly hand it over to the Tories for magic beans.
• Keef did whatever was necessary to attain power for himself within the Labour Party. He's now doing whatever's necessary to obtain power for himself at Westminster. Somehow, some are still convinced that he's going to do something, anything, in power that doesn't directly benefit himself, which is a bit of an indicator of how desperate we're getting.
• The argument against proportional representation on here was always that the Farage Party would have a voice in parliament. We've now started down the path towards proper fascism, so I'm not sure how well denying democracy to the far right has worked for us.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MazzyStar said:

Another “led by donkeys” stinker. Is there a worse campaign group out there? 

Why are you against PR? Sincere question, it's not something I'm fully decided on.

[MazzyStar]

26 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

Why are you against PR? Sincere question, it's not something I'm fully decided on.

In the grand scheme of things, I dont really care that Keir Starmer doesn’t want proportional representation. What I do care about is that Keir Starmer won’t raise income tax on the wealthiest, nationalise public services and many other abandoned policies of his. That’s not to say I didn’t think he’d abandon these policies, because it’s definitely unsurprising that he has.

The main point of my first post wasn’t really about being for or against PR, and my main issue with Led By Donkeys in this case is their insistence on using Starmers position on PR as their main criticism of him when ,in my opinion, there are much more effective criticisms of Starmer. Perhaps they have already criticised Starmer for some of the things I’ve mentioned and I’ve just not seen it. I’m also fairly certain that proportional representation isn’t something that is a priority of many people at the moment, which makes Led By Donkeys stunt even stranger. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, MazzyStar said:

In the grand scheme of things, I dont really care that Keir Starmer doesn’t want proportional representation. What I do care about is that Keir Starmer won’t raise income tax on the wealthiest, nationalise public services and many other abandoned policies of his. That’s not to say I didn’t think he’d abandon these policies, because it’s definitely unsurprising that he has.

The main point of my first post wasn’t really about being for or against PR, and my main issue with Led By Donkeys in this case is their insistence on using Starmers position on PR as their main criticism of him when ,in my opinion, there are much more effective criticisms of Starmer. Perhaps they have already criticised Starmer for some of the things I’ve mentioned and I’ve just not seen it. I’m also fairly certain that proportional representation isn’t something that is a priority of many people at the moment, which makes Led By Donkeys stunt even stranger. 

Ah, ok, that makes sense and I agree. I actually realised after reading your comment back that you were probably criticising Led By Donkeys for what they were prioritising rather than making a point about PR, but I'd already put my reply by then.

[Crùbag]

2 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

Another “led by donkeys” stinker. Is there a worse campaign group out there? 

Yes, the Labour Party, for one.

Could you imagine the Vegan Society suddenly promoting meat?

[Pocketman]

10 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

Another “led by donkeys” stinker. Is there a worse campaign group out there? 

what are their previous stinkers? 

I find their stuff very good and don't recall any "stinkers" - also consider that maintaining the status quo and the lack of any will for parliamentary reform inc introducing a system to replace FPTP and scrapping HoL is a priority issue to be raised. Otherwise we just see the continuation of the same types of parliamentarians, politics, and policies that has taken us to the self-serving, isolationist, right of centre focus we currently have that is largely led by the big two parties' self-preservation and self-interest. 

So on the back of that and in response to your question, I would say there are hundreds worse campaign groups kicking about. 

 

[Fullerene]

13 hours ago, BTFD said:

• The argument against proportional representation on here was always that the Farage Party would have a voice in parliament. We've now started down the path towards proper fascism, so I'm not sure how well denying democracy to the far right has worked for us.

I would be quite happy for the Farage Party to have a voice in parliament because every time they open their mouths they sound like idiots.

At the moment, their views get reported unchallenged by a largely compliant MSM and their threat to steal votes from the Tories means they have colossal influence on UK politics even with zero MPs.

[coprolite]

15 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

Another “led by donkeys” stinker. Is there a worse campaign group out there? 

Britain First

Countryside Alliance

Taxpayers Alliance 

PETA

Animal Rising

Probably others, antivax loonballs and big-oil anti wind-farm dupes. 

[MazzyStar]

11 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Britain First

Countryside Alliance

Taxpayers Alliance 

PETA

Animal Rising

Probably others, antivax loonballs and big-oil anti wind-farm dupes. 

What exactly has led by donkeys achieved other than making middle class people feel good about themselves for opposing the tories? 

[coprolite]

7 minutes ago, MazzyStar said:

What exactly has led by donkeys achieved other than making middle class people feel good about themselves for opposing the tories? 

I don't know who they are. So i'd guess nothing. 

Are you saying you prefer Britain First? 

[oneteaminglasgow]

16 minutes ago, coprolite said:

I don't know who they are. So i'd guess nothing. 

Are you saying you prefer Britain First? 

I don’t want to get too involved, but you could say Britain first and their far right pals have achieved much more than Led by Donkeys without necessarily preferring them.

The politics of led by donkeys is broadly vapid, centrist shite. They’re still far preferably to fascists, obviously. 

[MazzyStar]

16 minutes ago, coprolite said:

I don't know who they are. So i'd guess nothing. 

Are you saying you prefer Britain First? 

Of course I think there are groups that are worse, including Britain first. It was a flippant remark. 

The likes of Led by donkeys/FBPE/James O’Brien showed just how far their opposition to the tories goes from 2016-2019, when they were presented with a candidate promoting real change they shit the bed and did everything they could to keep the tories in power. 

[coprolite]

5 minutes ago, MazzyStar said:

Of course I think there are groups that are worse, including Britain first. It was a flippant remark. 

 

I know you do, i was being a dick to amuse myself. 

5 minutes ago, MazzyStar said:

The likes of Led by donkeys/FBPE/James O’Brien showed just how far their opposition to the tories goes from 2016-2019, when they were presented with a candidate promoting real change they shit the bed and did everything they could to keep the tories in power. 

I don't know the details of those particular groups politics, but the way the supposed moderate left enabled the defenestration and demonisation of Corbyn (who was only a moderate Social Democrat by European standards) killed any lingering hopes i had for the "Labour" party. So, aye, agree. 

 

13 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

I don’t want to get too involved, but you could say Britain first and their far right pals have achieved much more than Led by Donkeys without necessarily preferring them.

The politics of led by donkeys is broadly vapid, centrist shite. They’re still far preferably to fascists, obviously. 

Maybe they could learn something from the proper nutters about organisation and PR. 

[AndyM]

16 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

In the grand scheme of things, I dont really care that Keir Starmer doesn’t want proportional representation. What I do care about is that Keir Starmer won’t raise income tax on the wealthiest, nationalise public services and many other abandoned policies of his. That’s not to say I didn’t think he’d abandon these policies, because it’s definitely unsurprising that he has.

The main point of my first post wasn’t really about being for or against PR, and my main issue with Led By Donkeys in this case is their insistence on using Starmers position on PR as their main criticism of him when ,in my opinion, there are much more effective criticisms of Starmer. Perhaps they have already criticised Starmer for some of the things I’ve mentioned and I’ve just not seen it. I’m also fairly certain that proportional representation isn’t something that is a priority of many people at the moment, which makes Led By Donkeys stunt even stranger. 

I think their post was a bit flat tbh. As an ex Labour Party member I have pretty major criticisms of Starmer and I have no fucking idea what he actually stands for. But LBD have done some really good stuff in the past. Their past criticisms of the corrupt Johnson and then the catastrophic Truss and her band of mental libertarian moonhowlers were really good.

You are right though that PR is not a priority for most people just now. Getting rid of the Tories in 2024 and paying this winter's gas bill are higher up the priority scale.  Although I wouldn't put too much hope in PM Starmer.

[StellarHibee]

3 hours ago, MazzyStar said:

What exactly has led by donkeys achieved other than making middle class people feel good about themselves for opposing the tories? 

^^^ Still thinks there's a "middle class".

[scottsdad]

It's been a couple of weeks now, so it has settled in.

But I still like the old thread title better. 

[Suspect Device]

1 hour ago, StellarHibee said:

^^^ Still thinks there's a "middle class".

Middle class is what used to be the working class. Then there's the rich c***s and the underclass.

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, Suspect Device said:

Middle class is what used to be the working class. Then there's the rich c***s and the underclass.

That’s maybe not totally accurate but it’s a reasonable shorthand.

The problem with many ‘middle class’ people is that they think their interests are more aligned with the ‘rich cùnts’ than with the ‘underclass’.  

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

That’s maybe not totally accurate but it’s a reasonable shorthand.

The problem with many ‘middle class’ people is that they think their interests are more aligned with the ‘rich cùnts’ than with the ‘underclass’.  

That used to mystify me, but I've gradually come to accept that it's less to do with thinking their interests are aligned with the wealthy, and more to do with ensuring they have as many people as possible to feel superior to in this world.

The frisson of self-satisfied disgust at the bone-idle homeless waster, who could just get a job if they really wanted one. The denial of the growing need for charities to feed more and more working people who've made a decision to stay poor. The smug pleasure at the sight of kids in worn school uniform, whose parents shouldn't have had children if they couldn't afford them.