What is the point of Labour ?

[GHF-23]

On 03/10/2023 at 22:04, Dunning1874 said:

So we have a Tory conference when they are truly letting the fascist mask slip. Full on Enoch Powell rhetoric on immigration, utterly hateful and unrepentant attacks on the LGBT+ community, a total crackdown on any dissent, openly promoting and indulging far right conspiracy theories.

The Labour response, from the Shadow Home Secretary no less?

WHY AREN'T YOU BEING EVEN MORE AUTHORITARIAN?!

As the last 3 years have shown, a Labour Party that only attacks from the Tories from the right by trying to outmanoeuvre them on law & order definitely doesn't enable the Tories to get even worse.

 

On 04/10/2023 at 02:45, StellarHibee said:

I think it's clear to anybody who isn't a complete idiot that both parties fully intent to drag the UK even further down an authoritarian path. They are setting up their stalls in such a way that it doesn't really matter who wins the next election, as the plan will be secured either way.

It's become a bit of a cliche now at least in certain social media circles but it's genuinely now a choice between one party rubbing its hands together shouting "Yes, we get to build the society from Children of Men" and another solemnly hanging its head and saying "unfortunately we have no choice but to build the society from Children of Men".

13 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

 

So any pretence of a Parliamentary democracy’ that offers real choice goes from an unlikely reality to an illusion.

It's one of the many reasons that the UK can't really be described as a democratic society.

[Cheese]

It's been like this for a long while though, Corbyn was an aberration and moves have been made and rules changed to ensure something like that doesn't happen again.

America at least still functions as a two party state, there's clear daylight between its liberal and conservative wings on a range of issues across the board, despite both being corporate owned.

I don't think you can claim the UK is like that.

[GHF-23]

1 hour ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

It's been like this for a long while though, Corbyn was an aberration and moves have been made and rules changed to ensure something like that doesn't happen again.

America at least still functions as a two party state, there's clear daylight between its liberal and conservative wings on a range of issues across the board, despite both being corporate owned.

I don't think you can claim the UK is like that.

Yeah, the Corbyn thing was instructive. Essentially there's two groups which either set or moderate political opinion, despite being widely hated - the right wing press and (as much as I hate to use the term) "the liberal elite". The Times and the Sun in particular very much set the agenda for public discourse amongst large elements of the middle and working class respectively, and obviously we don't need to go in to probable prime ministers making deferring to NewsCorp as one of their top priorities. The second group - civil servants, guardian columnists etc - see themselves as fairly right on, maybe even lefty figures, but the Overton window has moved so far that they're now essentially Cameronian Tories in most social and economic areas; and they are particularly worried about any mass movement be it Brexit or Corbyn's labour.

Together this creates a "sensible" vision of politics that to most switched on people seems insane. The most obvious recent example of that was the school's concrete situation, where a labour bod said something along the lines of "we will do whatever needs to be done, so long as it doesn't cost too much money", when very obviously the actually sensible thing to do is say "we will do whatever needs done to fix or replace all the schools." We are starting to see more of an awareness in the press that the country is essentially fucked and doesn't work for anyone, but even then there's a lack of understanding of how we got here and what their involvement was. 

On the US thing, I'm always pretty astounded when people in the UK think they live somewhere meaningfully better. Yes they have problems which we can't even comprehend like medical bankruptcy and gun crime, but the power of state and city governments means there are areas which look far far better in terms of public services than the UK (public transportation aside - although this is obviously shit here as well). I'm biased in this, as my wife is from Portland, but in terms of things which improve quality of life like parks, arts programs etc it's night and day. As an example, at least at my local college, classes that aren't directly tied to qualifications and employment have pretty much disappeared, while at least in the area my in-laws stay the local arts centre has classes in everything you could imagine on a pay what you want basis. Now obviously there's a big homelessness problem in Portland as well due to the cost of housing (amongst other things), but as someone who lives in a country with the worst drug deaths in Europe and a state which allowed 300K+ people to die through austerity I don't really think it's my place to judge. 

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

It's been like this for a long while though, Corbyn was an aberration and moves have been made and rules changed to ensure something like that doesn't happen again.

America at least still functions as a two party state, there's clear daylight between its liberal and conservative wings on a range of issues across the board, despite both being corporate owned.

I don't think you can claim the UK is like that.

Are you drunk?  I hope so because the alternative is worse!

[Cheese]

15 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Are you drunk?  I hope so because the alternative is worse!

I think you've been out in the sun too long old man.

The original statement is both objectively and factually correct.

[Granny Danger]

8 minutes ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

I think you've been out in the sun too long old man.

The original statement is both objectively and factually correct.

Clear daylight between the corporate whores who won’t seriously advocate for gun control and the corporate whores who will oppose gun control.

You can substitute gun control for tax reform, wealth redistribution, creating corporate responsibility, police accountability, building walls on the southern border, prison reform,  humane treatment of illegal immigrants, etc.

[Cheese]

1 minute ago, Granny Danger said:

Clear daylight between the corporate whores who won’t seriously advocate for gun control and the corporate whores who will oppose gun control.

You can substitute gun control for tax reform, wealth redistribution, creating corporate responsibility, police accountability, building walls on the southern border, prison reform,  humane treatment of illegal immigrants, etc.

If there's zero difference between conservatives and liberals in the US, then why are you posting shit like this ?

On 01/07/2023 at 07:02, Granny Danger said:

Yesterday’s Supreme Court rulings mean the election of a Democratic President is more vital than ever.  Hopefully Thomas and Alito pop their clogs in the next couple of years.

If they're both exactly the same, then why does it matter that the President is a Democrat, or the Supreme Court is full of conservatives ?

[Granny Danger]

Just now, Ziggy Sobotka said:

If there's zero difference between conservatives and liberals in the US, then why are you posting shit like this ?

If they're both exactly the same, then why does it matter that the President is a Democrat, or the Supreme Court is full of conservatives ?

‘Clear daylight’ and ‘exactly the same’ is not the same.

[Billy Jean King]

1 minute ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

If there's zero difference between conservatives and liberals in the US, then why are you posting shit like this ?

If they're both exactly the same, then why does it matter that the President is a Democrat, or the Supreme Court is full of conservatives ?

Just because a system is broken doesn't mean you just accept that. Pointing out the issues in a broken system is always worthwhile 

[Cheese]

8 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

‘Clear daylight’ and ‘exactly the same’ is not the same.

There is absolutely clear daylight in both the laws that are passed and the way individual states are run by both liberals and conservatives in the US.

Of course there is convergence on certain issues, but the country is hugely polarised for a reason.

[KirkieRR]

Anyway, the likes of Sirkeir and Rayner crowing about their election victory while simultaneously displaying their ignorance of Scotland and its politics.

[Granny Danger]

Looks like Labour want to cover up their internal problems until after the next GE.  It would be terrible if the truth came out about paid Labour Party employees trying to undermine the elected leader and being unhappy that Labour under Corbyn performed better than expected in the 2017 GE.

Anyone voting for this disreputable mob deserve everything they get.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/oct/06/labour-seeking-delay-antisemitism-leak-lawsuit-after-election

[scottsdad]

Now it's Labour's conference. Having seen last week how not to do a conference, what will Labour offer?

I'm old enough to remember Labour's 1996 one. That's the bar they need to reach, I think. "Education, education, education" might have been a slogan but it stuck. 

[doulikefish]

13 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

Now it's Labour's conference. Having seen last week how not to do a conference, what will Labour offer?

I'm old enough to remember Labour's 1996 one. That's the bar they need to reach, I think. "Education, education, education" might have been a slogan but it stuck. 

Going with the "energy" company today which in reality is giving private companies the cash 

[RuMoore]

On 08/10/2023 at 04:12, Granny Danger said:

 

Anyone voting for this disreputable mob deserve everything they get.

 

[coprolite]

According to whatever Westminister weasel reports for the Today programme, Labour’s strategy for this conference is to keep it out of the news and not draw any attention. 
 

While cowardly and uninspiring, it’s probably sensible. Whether they can see it out without some guy in a donkey jacket smuggling a Palestinian flag in is another matter.

[KirkieRR]

What's that creepy slithering noise following Knighthood Keir around?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67048553

[scottsdad]

15 minutes ago, coprolite said:

According to whatever Westminister weasel reports for the Today programme, Labour’s strategy for this conference is to keep it out of the news and not draw any attention. 
 

While cowardly and uninspiring, it’s probably sensible. Whether they can see it out without some guy in a donkey jacket smuggling a Palestinian flag in is another matter.

Watching HIGNFY on Friday, Ian Hislop made a remark that the only Labour policy was "We're not the Tories".

His guest said "Well, it's a fucking great policy". Big applause. 

[Granny Danger]

18 minutes ago, coprolite said:

According to whatever Westminister weasel reports for the Today programme, Labour’s strategy for this conference is to keep it out of the news and not draw any attention. 
 

While cowardly and uninspiring, it’s probably sensible. Whether they can see it out without some guy in a donkey jacket smuggling a Palestinian flag in is another matter.

Guy in a donkey jacket getting within 100 yards of the conference hall?  You’re having a laugh.

[orfc]

3 hours ago, coprolite said:

According to whatever Westminister weasel reports for the Today programme, Labour’s strategy for this conference is to keep it out of the news and not draw any attention. 
 

While cowardly and uninspiring, it’s probably sensible. Whether they can see it out without some guy in a donkey jacket smuggling a Palestinian flag in is another matter.

Corbyn's not allowed in is he? I thought he had the whip removed?