What is the point of Labour ?

[Salt n Vinegar]

8 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

.......

.......

'If' the economy can grow, obviously more taxes come in, with more available for the govt to spend (of public money). Yes, once the private finance is 'in the door', how do you become less reliant on it?

It's a choice facing all administrations across the UK.

One way would be to make it clear that the increased use of the private sector in previously NHS delivered services was short-term with no long contracts. As soon as you contact a service out, they rarely come back.

[Jedi2]

29 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

One way would be to make it clear that the increased use of the private sector in previously NHS delivered services was short-term with no long contracts. As soon as you contact a service out, they rarely come back.

Fair point.

[Granny Danger]

Labour's campaign coordinator says he wants the Sun to endorse the party next
 

 

We reported earlier that the Sunday Times has endorsed the Labour party ahead of the 4 July general election, which Keir Starmer is widely expected to win, perhaps in a landslide bigger than Tony Blair’s in 1997.

The paper is owned by Rupert Murdoch’s News UK and has endorsed the Conservative party in every election since 2005.

Labour’s national campaign coordinator, Pat McFadden, has told LBC that the party wants the Sun’s endorsement next.

The Sun – which famously endorsed Blair for three consecutive elections (1997, 2001 and 2005) – is still boycotted in much of Merseyside, a Labour stronghold, due to its false reporting on the 1989 Hillsborough stadium disaster.

McFadden told LBC’s Lewis Goodall:

We always welcome endorsements, I think they matter. We have changed, broadened our appeal. You can’t win by just speaking to people who already agree with you … I would like the Sun to endorse us but it’s a decision for them.

 

[Highlandmagar]

3 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Labour's campaign coordinator says he wants the Sun to endorse the party next
 

 

 

We reported earlier that the Sunday Times has endorsed the Labour party ahead of the 4 July general election, which Keir Starmer is widely expected to win, perhaps in a landslide bigger than Tony Blair’s in 1997.

The paper is owned by Rupert Murdoch’s News UK and has endorsed the Conservative party in every election since 2005.

Labour’s national campaign coordinator, Pat McFadden, has told LBC that the party wants the Sun’s endorsement next.

The Sun – which famously endorsed Blair for three consecutive elections (1997, 2001 and 2005) – is still boycotted in much of Merseyside, a Labour stronghold, due to its false reporting on the 1989 Hillsborough stadium disaster.

McFadden told LBC’s Lewis Goodall:

We always welcome endorsements, I think they matter. We have changed, broadened our appeal. You can’t win by just speaking to people who already agree with you … I would like the Sun to endorse us but it’s a decision for them.

 

Confirms their love of Toryism.

[Jedi2]

The same 'Sun' which has endorsed the SNP for years, in their Scottish Edition?

[Salvo Montalbano]

1 minute ago, Jedi2 said:

The same 'Sun' which has endorsed the SNP for years, in their Scottish Edition?

Don't think the Sun has endorsed the SNP for at least a decade, at least officially? They used to claim to support independence and the SNP back in the 80s and 90s, but as I'm sure you're aware, that was a tactic to depress the Labour vote in Scotland to make sure the Tories won overall.

[Jedi2]

2 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

The same 'Sun' which has endorsed the SNP for years, in their Scottish Edition?

 

That infamous front page from 2015 (at least). You are right they did 'support' Independence in the 90s as well:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/29/the-sun-backs-the-tories-for-election-but-scottish-edition-backs-the-snp

Or indeed as Alex Salmond said of Rupert Murdoch:

'He is a remarkable man. What is wrong with this relationship? Why shouldn’t politicians engage with people in the media?'

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/alex-salmond-hails-remarkable-rupert-murdoch-1538266

And of course we have also had the Spectator celebrating Kate Forbes cuts to public services in 2022, crowning her the 'McMilton Friedman of Scottish Nationalism'

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2022/06/snp-austerity-militarism-neoliberalism

 

Edited Sunday at 23:20 by Jedi2

[Cheese]

On course for a stonking majority and yet they still feel the urge to tongue Murdoch's balls.

Pathetic.

[Jedi2]

Yep....Sun endorses SNP, Salmond and Sturgeon cosy up to Murdoch and the Spectator cheerleads their public sector cuts = Good

Sun 'might' endorse Labour = Baaaadddd

 

 

[Boo Khaki]

Personally, I couldn't GAF which paper endorses which party, because part of me believes that if you decide your vote based on what you read in the UK press, then you're probably the sort of person who any sane country would disenfranchise or lock up for the greater good.

Edited Monday at 01:11 by Boo Khaki

[Fullerene]

10 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Personally, I couldn't GAF which paper endorses which party, because part of me believes that if you decide your vote based on what you read in the UK press, then you're probably the sort of person who any sane country would disenfranchise or lock up for the greater good.

Then again you are sufficiently interested in politics to be contributing to this thread.

A lot of people are not.  Too busy with other things.  If the paper you read tells you which party is up and which is down then that will influence some people who are normally disinterested in politics.

These papers also suggest what films to see, where to eat, where to go on holiday and for people who like a little advice then that is enough.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

5 hours ago, Fullerene said:

Then again you are sufficiently interested in politics to be contributing to this thread.

A lot of people are not.  Too busy with other things.  If the paper you read tells you which party is up and which is down then that will influence some people who are normally disinterested in politics.

These papers also suggest what films to see, where to eat, where to go on holiday and for people who like a little advice then that is enough.

It's precisely because we anoraks on here are interested in politics that we are concerned about the endorsement of the national press.

The probable reality however is that many of the electorate now take their lead from social media, not so much to be informed as to reinforce their existing prejudices.  The digital editions may have some impact but it will be limited.

[scottsdad]

9 hours ago, Cheese said:

On course for a stonking majority and yet they still feel the urge to tongue Murdoch's balls.

Pathetic.

Don't knock it until you've tried it. 

[coprolite]

On 29/06/2024 at 23:29, Jedi2 said:

 

Public funding has taken such a bit hit over the past few years, with Covid costing around £400 billion. The one thing the Tories did get right was the furlough scheme, which in fairness saved a lot of jobs, but was very costly. The other major hit is of course Brexit.

With debt at the highest level since the early 60s, any govt would in present circumstances have to lever in private finance. Its not a 'happy choice' and one I would much rather we weren't in a position to need, but to put money into public services and try to get Investment going in Green Energy, its where we are at.

You can argue that that is more 'right-wing' economically, and in harsh terms, it is, but it is a hard choice to either hike taxes on ordinary folk or use some of the private money along the way.

'If' the economy can grow, obviously more taxes come in, with more available for the govt to spend (of public money). Yes, once the private finance is 'in the door', how do you become less reliant on it?

It's a choice facing all administrations across the UK.

Why does the level of debt mean the government "has to lever in private finances"? 

Any private investment will require a return which is a public cost. 

The cheapest return for the government to pay out is on debt. 

Any other investment comes with the illusion of the private sector bearing risk, which they want paid for. They never bear that risk though. It's underwritten by the government, often tacitly. 

Also, investment buys assets. If the government has assets it either spends less renting them (eg hospitals, schools) or gets income from them (housing, utilities) 

Just because some gobshites on the telly say that government debt has to come down, doesn't make it so. "spooking the bond markets" and "maxing the credit card" type bollocks is just bollocks and bears no relation to reality. 

[Salvo Montalbano]

11 hours ago, Jedi2 said:

That infamous front page from 2015 (at least). You are right they did 'support' Independence in the 90s as well:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/29/the-sun-backs-the-tories-for-election-but-scottish-edition-backs-the-snp

Or indeed as Alex Salmond said of Rupert Murdoch:

'He is a remarkable man. What is wrong with this relationship? Why shouldn’t politicians engage with people in the media?'

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/alex-salmond-hails-remarkable-rupert-murdoch-1538266

And of course we have also had the Spectator celebrating Kate Forbes cuts to public services in 2022, crowning her the 'McMilton Friedman of Scottish Nationalism'

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2022/06/snp-austerity-militarism-neoliberalism

 

You've literally quoted another example where the Sun endorsed the Tories and so decides to "endorse" the SNP to reduce Labour turnout! There has never been a time in recent (Murdoch owned) years where the Sun has endorsed the SNP alone, or the SNP in Scotland and Labour elsewhere. If you can't see what's happening here then I'm not sure you're the seasoned political operative we assumed you were projecting?

[Jedi2]

2 hours ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

You've literally quoted another example where the Sun endorsed the Tories and so decides to "endorse" the SNP to reduce Labour turnout! There has never been a time in recent (Murdoch owned) years where the Sun has endorsed the SNP alone, or the SNP in Scotland and Labour elsewhere. If you can't see what's happening here then I'm not sure you're the seasoned political operative we assumed you were projecting?

Didn't disagree that the Sun was backing the SNP in Scotland in order the deflate the Labour vote and help the Tories UK wide..you are right about that.

Both Salmond (by his own admission) and Sturgeon were still happy to cosy up to Murdoch though.

Clearly print media is not the political influence it once was, compares to Social Media. Would imagine that a majority of folk aged between 18 and around 60 probably shape their political views from online sources nowadays.

[tamthebam]

2 hours ago, coprolite said:

Why does the level of debt mean the government "has to lever in private finances"? 

Any private investment will require a return which is a public cost. 

The cheapest return for the government to pay out is on debt. 

Any other investment comes with the illusion of the private sector bearing risk, which they want paid for. They never bear that risk though. It's underwritten by the government, often tacitly. 

Also, investment buys assets. If the government has assets it either spends less renting them (eg hospitals, schools) or gets income from them (housing, utilities) 

Just because some gobshites on the telly say that government debt has to come down, doesn't make it so. "spooking the bond markets" and "maxing the credit card" type bollocks is just bollocks and bears no relation to reality. 

Nicolae Ceaucescu tried to reduce Romania's debt in the 1980s which led to him being shot on Christmas Day by a grateful nation. 

[carpetmonster]

3 hours ago, scottsdad said:

Don't knock it until you've tried it. 

‘Stop yer moanin Wullie. You want tae see what @scottsdad will do to get oot ae a parkin ticket. Michty!’ 

[coprolite]

11 minutes ago, tamthebam said:

Nicolae Ceaucescu tried to reduce Romania's debt in the 1980s which led to him being shot on Christmas Day by a grateful nation. 

Are you advocating festive executions? (a festocution if you will) Would beat the monarch doing a speech. Could be a reality format with charity phone lines. 

 

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, coprolite said:

Are you advocating festive executions? (a festocution if you will) Would beat the monarch doing a speech. Could be a reality format with charity phone lines. 

 

Can we wait until Easter then.  Seems appropriate plus it’s a distraction from the inevitable relegation battle.