The normalisation of the far-right continues

[BFTD]

7 hours ago, GordonS said:

In recent years its occurred to me that very many Germans learned the wrong thing from the holocaust. They didn't learn not to be racist, not to be exclusionary and nationalistic; they learned not to be bad to the Jews. It's fine believing you're superior to non-Germans though.

That's pretty depressing.

Actually, did any of the big names in WWII learn the right lessons? The descendants of the Britain's wartime generation(s) seem to have developed the idea that it was pretty great and feel nostalgia for something awful that they never experienced. Half of America seems to think that the only things Hitler did wrong were persecuting the Jews, being a horrible socialist (lol), and daring to fight America. Japan supposedly teaches their children that Japan did nothing wrong, and there are monsters in Israel who seem to have taken inspiration from the atrocities inflicted upon their own families.

Did the Golden & Silent Generations shit the bed in terms of laying down the law to their kids, or are we just a terminally dense species?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

7 hours ago, GordonS said:

The trade unions, the Scottish Refugee Council and the housing charities don't go to pro-independence rallies. This isn't going to be that.

I was talking about the arseholes on the other side.

[Theyellowbox]

7 hours ago, BFTD said:

Did the Golden & Silent Generations shit the bed in terms of laying down the law to their kids, or are we just a terminally dense species?

 

They, (wrongly as it turns out) assumed that the events were so horrific that future generations would be so disgusted that no one would ever want it again.

Things like NATO and the EEC (and its forebearers) were set up by that generation on the basis that closer ties and Co operation would mean we wouldn't end here. But hey, the great British public swallowed the lie and here we are.

Interesting that the knuckle draggers look up so much to that generation for WW2, but completely ignore that it was the same generation who also set up these institutions. They'd hate these folk chanting and waving flags in their names. 

[A Diamond For Me]

15 hours ago, GordonS said:

In recent years its occurred to me that very many Germans learned the wrong thing from the holocaust. They didn't learn not to be racist, not to be exclusionary and nationalistic; they learned not to be bad to the Jews. It's fine believing you're superior to non-Germans though.

Naomi Klein's recent book, Doppelganger, goes into this a bit.  A very good book.

[aDONisSheep]

Lucy Connolly about to do more bird!  

 

If that's what happens to racists, then 'so be it'.

Edited September 2 by aDONisSheep

[GordonS]

6 hours ago, BFTD said:

That's pretty depressing.

Actually, did any of the big names in WWII learn the right lessons? The descendants of the Britain's wartime generation(s) seem to have developed the idea that it was pretty great and feel nostalgia for something awful that they never experienced. Half of America seems to think that the only things Hitler did wrong were persecuting the Jews, being a horrible socialist (lol), and daring to fight America. Japan supposedly teaches their children that Japan did nothing wrong, and there are monsters in Israel who seem to have taken inspiration from the atrocities inflicted upon their own families.

WWII was possibly the major war with the most obvious goodies and baddies. The baddies were the worst group that have ever lived and perpetrated the most widespread and most heinous crimes against humanity we've ever seen. British culture since 1945 has been dominated by the fact that it was unarguably on the good side. This has enabled it to overlook the many sins in its history, including and especially colonialism, and perpetuate a sense of exceptionalism.

Quote

Did the Golden & Silent Generations shit the bed in terms of laying down the law to their kids, or are we just a terminally dense species?

Nobody likes to dwell on the suffering and pain, so as the people who actually fought the damn thing die out all we're left with is the honour and the glory. Also, as Britain was never occupied, the hardship experienced by civilians was relatively extremely limited. I'm not diminishing the hardship of those who experienced the blitz, but the combined weight of all the bombs dropped on the UK in the entire war was less than has been dropped on Gaza since October. 

[PossilYM]

48 minutes ago, GordonS said:

WWII was possibly the major war with the most obvious goodies and baddies. The baddies were the worst group that have ever lived and perpetrated the most widespread and most heinous crimes against humanity we've ever seen. British culture since 1945 has been dominated by the fact that it was unarguably on the good side. This has enabled it to overlook the many sins in its history, including and especially colonialism, and perpetuate a sense of exceptionalism.

Nobody likes to dwell on the suffering and pain, so as the people who actually fought the damn thing die out all we're left with is the honour and the glory. Also, as Britain was never occupied, the hardship experienced by civilians was relatively extremely limited. I'm not diminishing the hardship of those who experienced the blitz, but the combined weight of all the bombs dropped on the UK in the entire war was less than has been dropped on Gaza since October. 

So when will the next World War be?

Answer, when there's nobody left that remembers the last one.

Say Battle of Waterloo 1815 to start of WW1 1914.

85 years passed since the start of WW2 in 1939. Veterans from say the Dunkirk evacuation must be pretty scarce in Scotland. Not much more from D Day in 1944. 

Slightly more obscure and geeky but you can easily transfer the demographics of say any large football crowd in the past and guess how many fans at the game would still be around. 

[Granny Danger]

3 hours ago, aDONisSheep said:

Lucy Connolly about to do more bird!  

 

If that's what happens to racists, then 'so be it'.

There was a few folk on here convinced she’d get off with a slap on the wrist because of her background.

I think it’s pretty obvious that if that had happened it would have been very problematic.  Optics vitally important here.

I reckon she will be the one that most will remember in a ‘well if they can do it to her…’ sort of way.

Will hopefully be a huge deterrent for the future.

[BFTD]

3 hours ago, A Diamond For Me said:

Naomi Klein's recent book, Doppelganger, goes into this a bit.  A very good book.

Added that to the wish list. Sounds interesting.

[HibeeJibee]

3 hours ago, PossilYM said:

85 years passed since the start of WW2 in 1939. Veterans from say the Dunkirk evacuation must be pretty scarce in Scotland. Not much more from D Day in 1944.

Heading off-topic but it's thought the last Royal Navy veteran of Dunkirk died last year. Probably some soldiers left and maybe civilians. There is only 1 pilot from the Battle of Britain still alive.

[PossilYM]

4 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Heading off-topic but it's thought the last Royal Navy veteran of Dunkirk died last year. Probably some soldiers left and maybe civilians. There is only 1 pilot from the Battle of Britain still alive.

Was thinking of my old man. Maybe a year or two older than Prince Philip. My father would have been 104 this month. 

[HibeeJibee]

6 minutes ago, PossilYM said:

Was thinking of my old man. Maybe a year or two older than Prince Philip. My father would have been 104 this month. 

On the other hand 1 of the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbour is still alive... 1 of Glenn Miller's wartime band... 1 witness to Germany's surrender... all of which seem a bit surreal.

There is still 1 athlete surviving from 1936 Olympics in Germany :     Iris Cummings - Wikipedia


EDIT: Scotland's only surviving VC recipient is 104:     John Cruickshank - Wikipedia

This officer was the captain and pilot of a Catalina flying boat which was recently engaged on an anti-submarine patrol over northern waters. When a U-boat was sighted on the surface, Flying Officer Cruickshank at once turned to the attack. In the face of fierce anti-aircraft fire he manoeuvred into position and ran in to release his depth charges. Unfortunately they failed to drop.

Flying Officer Cruickshank knew that the failure of this attack had deprived him of the advantage of surprise and that his aircraft offered a good target to the enemy's determined and now heartened gunners.

Without hesitation, he climbed and turned to come in again. The Catalina was met by intense and accurate fire and was repeatedly hit. The navigator/bomb aimer was killed. The second pilot and two other members of the crew were injured. Flying Officer Cruickshank was struck in seventy-two places, receiving two serious wounds in the lungs and ten penetrating wounds in the lower limbs. His aircraft was badly damaged and filled with the fumes of exploding shells. But he did not falter. He pressed home his attack, and released the depth charges himself, straddling the submarine perfectly. The U-boat was sunk.

He then collapsed and the second pilot took over the controls. He recovered shortly afterwards and, though bleeding profusely, insisted on resuming command and retaining it until he was satisfied that the damaged aircraft was under control, that a course had been set for base and that all the necessary signals had been sent. Only then would he consent to receive medical aid and have his wounds attended to. He refused morphia in case it might prevent him from carrying on.

During the next five and a half hours of the return flight he several times lapsed into unconsciousness owing to loss of blood. When he came to his first thought on each occasion was for the safety of his aircraft and crew. The damaged aircraft eventually reached base but it was clear that an immediate landing would be a hazardous task for the wounded and less experienced second pilot. Although able to breathe only with the greatest difficulty, Flying Officer Cruickshank insisted on being carried forward and propped up in the second pilot's seat. For a full hour, in spite of his agony and ever-increasing weakness, he gave orders as necessary, refusing to allow the aircraft to be brought down until the conditions of light and sea made this possible without undue risk.

With his assistance the aircraft was safely landed on the water. He then directed the taxying and beaching of the aircraft so that it could easily be salvaged. When the medical officer went on board, Flying Officer Cruickshank collapsed and he had to be given a blood transfusion before he could be removed to hospital.

 

Edited September 2 by HibeeJibee

[PossilYM]

2 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

On the other hand 1 of the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbour is still alive... 1 of Glenn Miller's wartime band... 1 witness to Germany's surrender... all of which seem a bit surreal.

There is still 1 athlete surviving from 1936 Olympics in Germany :     Iris Cummings - Wikipedia

A lot in common, age wise, with say a large cup final crowd of old, bulk of whom would be under 40 years of age 

[BFTD]

More importantly, it does rather make one wonder when the last of the P&B posse will shuffle off this mortal coil.

Can @Granny Danger retain his record and outlive yet another generation of youngsters?

[Granny Danger]

30 minutes ago, BFTD said:

More importantly, it does rather make one wonder when the last of the P&B posse will shuffle off this mortal coil.

Can @Granny Danger retain his record and outlive yet another generation of youngsters?

If the good die young I’ll be around for a very long time yet.

[carpetmonster]

5 minutes ago, Sheas_cake said:

Yeah I was one of them and am delighted to be wrong.

By the time she's sentenced she'll have been in for a good 2-3 months and will probably get a couple of years. I can't imagine her fellow inmates are going to take to some post Tory bird being chucked in with them. *plays tiny violin* 

I do still think however she'll set herself up as the far right's "poster girl" against Labour's two tier policing and probably grift a decent amount of money from other far right f**kwits. 

I hope her chin doesn't get itchy during sentencing. Size of that thing, the beak will probably think they're getting Jimmy Hilled and give her another 6 months for contempt. 

[Merkie84]

On 02/09/2024 at 07:02, BFTD said:

That's pretty depressing.

Actually, did any of the big names in WWII learn the right lessons? The descendants of the Britain's wartime generation(s) seem to have developed the idea that it was pretty great and feel nostalgia for something awful that they never experienced. Half of America seems to think that the only things Hitler did wrong were persecuting the Jews, being a horrible socialist (lol), and daring to fight America. Japan supposedly teaches their children that Japan did nothing wrong, and there are monsters in Israel who seem to have taken inspiration from the atrocities inflicted upon their own families.

Did the Golden & Silent Generations shit the bed in terms of laying down the law to their kids, or are we just a terminally dense species?

I have been thinking this the last few remembrance days.  The tone seems to have shifted in my lifetime from being glad fascism was defeated to being glad “we beat the Germans” . 
. 

[Billy Jean King]

12 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

On the other hand 1 of the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbour is still alive... 1 of Glenn Miller's wartime band... 1 witness to Germany's surrender... all of which seem a bit surreal.

There is still 1 athlete surviving from 1936 Olympics in Germany :     Iris Cummings - Wikipedia


EDIT: Scotland's only surviving VC recipient is 104:     John Cruickshank - Wikipedia

This officer was the captain and pilot of a Catalina flying boat which was recently engaged on an anti-submarine patrol over northern waters. When a U-boat was sighted on the surface, Flying Officer Cruickshank at once turned to the attack. In the face of fierce anti-aircraft fire he manoeuvred into position and ran in to release his depth charges. Unfortunately they failed to drop.

Flying Officer Cruickshank knew that the failure of this attack had deprived him of the advantage of surprise and that his aircraft offered a good target to the enemy's determined and now heartened gunners.

Without hesitation, he climbed and turned to come in again. The Catalina was met by intense and accurate fire and was repeatedly hit. The navigator/bomb aimer was killed. The second pilot and two other members of the crew were injured. Flying Officer Cruickshank was struck in seventy-two places, receiving two serious wounds in the lungs and ten penetrating wounds in the lower limbs. His aircraft was badly damaged and filled with the fumes of exploding shells. But he did not falter. He pressed home his attack, and released the depth charges himself, straddling the submarine perfectly. The U-boat was sunk.

He then collapsed and the second pilot took over the controls. He recovered shortly afterwards and, though bleeding profusely, insisted on resuming command and retaining it until he was satisfied that the damaged aircraft was under control, that a course had been set for base and that all the necessary signals had been sent. Only then would he consent to receive medical aid and have his wounds attended to. He refused morphia in case it might prevent him from carrying on.

During the next five and a half hours of the return flight he several times lapsed into unconsciousness owing to loss of blood. When he came to his first thought on each occasion was for the safety of his aircraft and crew. The damaged aircraft eventually reached base but it was clear that an immediate landing would be a hazardous task for the wounded and less experienced second pilot. Although able to breathe only with the greatest difficulty, Flying Officer Cruickshank insisted on being carried forward and propped up in the second pilot's seat. For a full hour, in spite of his agony and ever-increasing weakness, he gave orders as necessary, refusing to allow the aircraft to be brought down until the conditions of light and sea made this possible without undue risk.

With his assistance the aircraft was safely landed on the water. He then directed the taxying and beaching of the aircraft so that it could easily be salvaged. When the medical officer went on board, Flying Officer Cruickshank collapsed and he had to be given a blood transfusion before he could be removed to hospital.

 

Cheers saves me some DP 2025 study

[O'Kelly Isley III]

21 hours ago, A Diamond For Me said:

Naomi Klein's recent book, Doppelganger, goes into this a bit.  A very good book.

I think for the immediate post-war German generations there was a profound sense of shock, anger and regret, but with the passage of time and its accompanying global upheaval that will have all but completely dissipated.

And in that sense we should not be surprised at contemporary attitudes and prejudices.

[MazzyStar]

I wouldn’t be surprised to see the SPD work with the fascists. They’ve got previous. 

Edited September 6 by MazzyStar