Jacksgranda Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 18 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: The key sentence though is: "There’s no denying Labour has badly handled anti-Semitism." There has been a consistent process of denial, prevarication and ultimately apology/climbdown. Corbyn has to take the blame for this state of affairs - as I've said before his big problem is that he is now leader and needs to act like a leader not the rebel MP he once was. I think if he'd been far stronger on condemning those who use antizionism as a cover for their own antisemitism then he'd probably have far less of a problem. Interestingly the one person in Corbyn's team who seems to understand that is McDonnell who now seems to be pushing Labour in the right direction to defuse the situation. Corbyn's real problem is that he instinctively wants to be all-inclusive and so some get a huge benefit of the doubt when they really ought to be given short thrift. Is that the Momentum term for "austerity"? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 The NHS in crisis, local authorities going bankrupt and struggling to meet the most basic of services, the rail system in parts of the U.K. an absolute farce, Brexit threatening to drag the economy back a decade; yet the manufactured story of Labour’s anti-semitism is the lead news story. The establishment are shitting themselves over Corbyn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 The NHS in crisis, local authorities going bankrupt and struggling to meet the most basic of services, the rail system in parts of the U.K. an absolute farce, Brexit threatening to drag the economy back a decade; yet the manufactured story of Labour’s anti-semitism is the lead news story. The establishment are shitting themselves over Corbyn. They certainly should be shitting themselves but with the opinion polls neck and neck despite all the factors you (rightly) list, they are most certainly not.And that's because Corbyn is an insipid, prevaricating, uninspiring and accidental leader at exactly the point in history when the UK desperately needs someone to step up to the plate. In other words, to all but the true believers he is a fucking washout. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Scary that some people really do believe stuff like Jews being warned in advance about 9-11 and not showing up for work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madwullie Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said: Scary that some people really do believe stuff like Jews being warned in advance about 9-11 and not showing up for work. Two years ago I'd have agreed but with what people are currently swallowing down as truth in America just now, it doesn't surprise me at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Judge Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 4 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: he is now leader and needs to act like a leader not the rebel MP he once was. You saying he's not Street Tuff? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 The key sentence though is:"There’s no denying Labour has badly handled anti-Semitism."There has been a consistent process of denial, prevarication and ultimately apology/climbdown. Corbyn has to take the blame for this state of affairs - as I've said before his big problem is that he is now leader and needs to act like a leader not the rebel MP he once was.I think if he'd been far stronger on condemning those who use antizionism as a cover for their own antisemitism then he'd probably have far less of a problem. Interestingly the one person in Corbyn's team who seems to understand that is McDonnell who now seems to be pushing Labour in the right direction to defuse the situation.Corbyn's real problem is that he instinctively wants to be all-inclusive and so some get a huge benefit of the doubt when they really ought to be given short thrift.I think you're letting your dislike for Corbyn colour your view of this issue. The media campaign is entirely manufactured. It has been decided that this issue is one to attack Corbyn with and so a new article appears every day. Drip, drip, drip. Corbyn would have to completely cave in for the issue to go away, and in that situation a new issue would arise. Repeat as nauseum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdog Posted August 5, 2018 Author Share Posted August 5, 2018 Askwarrrddd! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Askwarrrddd!Flicking through that guy's feed is very interesting. He's got it spot on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 Tories scramble to add antisemitism to their rules, the full version of course. https://twitter.com/FactCheck/status/1020351509157072897 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieThomas Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 It's almost as if they don't actually give two fucks and are absolute opportunists. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, JamieThomas said: It's almost as if they don't actually give two fucks and are absolute opportunists. "Gerald, we have to put something nice in about the Yids, chop chop." Edited August 6, 2018 by welshbairn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 It's almost as if they don't actually give two fucks and are absolute opportunists. No surprise - opportunism has always been the Tory way - the problem is that enough voters believe the duplicitous b*****ds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 Adopting the full IHRA definitions wouldn’t end this either as it would be used to pursue action against members that make legitimate criticisms of Israel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 Not a fan of Corbyn but he's no anti-Semite. Would rather he committed to removing Trident and House of Lords, opposing Brexit and supporting an independent Scotland and would rather he was tackled on those issues. Labour has many greater problems IMHO - Orange Order members, Islamophobia and homophobia not to mention its simmering hatred of the SNP and favouring of the Tories at times. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 Adopting the full IHRA definitions wouldn’t end this either as it would be used to pursue action against members that make legitimate criticisms of Israel. Claiming Israel is a racist endeavour is not, as has been claimed, the same as saying that Israel has acted in a racist manner, or has racist policies. Describing Israel’s very existence as a racist endeavour means you believe that everything about Israel, from its very beginning, has been racist. There are many ways to criticise Israel which do not fall foul of the categories mentioned in the IHRA definition. The IHRA definition specifically says that “criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.” By that it would not be antisemitic, for instance, to accuse Israel of having racist policies. Professor Alan Johnson, Senior Research Fellow at the Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre (BICOM) - wore a paper in 2016 - "Antisemitic anti-Zionism: the root of Labour’s crisis" - which was his submission to the Labour Party inquiry into antisemitism and other forms of racism - irrespective of your views it makes an interesting read. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://israelandtheacademy.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/WATERMARKEDEssay.Antisemitic-Anti-Zionism.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiX6tSSvdjcAhVrCcAKHbk8BSwQFjAJegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3BLzBHQd8_JlEI5ZguM8ot One solution he suggested was that: "Labour must offer members a better, more democratic alternative: campaigning in solidarity with all who support the two states for two peoples solution: pro-Palestine, pro-Israel, pro-peace. The creation of a new campaign and a new or ‘third narrative’ could help provide party members with a progressive campaigning alternative." I personally think that is the route Labour should be going down. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 2 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: Claiming Israel is a racist endeavour is not, as has been claimed, the same as saying that Israel has acted in a racist manner, or has racist policies. Describing Israel’s very existence as a racist endeavour means you believe that everything about Israel, from its very beginning, has been racist. The ethnic cleansing, property and land confiscation Israel undertook to ensure a Jewish majority after 1948 was inherently racist, I don't see how it could be described in any other way. Is it anti semitic to say so? Israel has established it's right to exist by the force of arms and having several generations growing up on the land. Most states started with some kind of forceful seizure, so they're not that unusual in that regard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppino Impastato Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 Israel is a racist endeavour. It was always designed as such. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 I think you're letting your dislike for Corbyn colour your view of this issue. The media campaign is entirely manufactured. It has been decided that this issue is one to attack Corbyn with and so a new article appears every day. Drip, drip, drip. Corbyn would have to completely cave in for the issue to go away, and in that situation a new issue would arise. Repeat as nauseum. Not helped by morons using inappropriate language. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45086365 Even Momentum were quick off the mark to denounce this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 Reasonable posters engaging in good faith with roughly the same politics disagreeing on the interpretation of a definition and whether Israel’s founding was a racist endeavour. I’m sure we should trust the wreckers in the PLP to only pursue legitimate cases of anti-semitism if Labour adopt the IHRA’s definitions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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