Israel lobby v Corbyn

[Peppino Impastato]

10 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Meanwhile in Tehran...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3227881/Israel-destroyed-25-years-Iranian-supreme-leader-issues-chilling-warning-Zionists-rejects-talks-Great-Satan-U-S-nuclear-deal.html

http://thefederalist.com/2018/06/04/iranian-leader-calls-for-end-of-israel-embassy-digs-out-mean-girl-gif/

 

 

This is just meaningless hyperbole to appeal to his nutter base and has been matched many times by similar statements from nutteryahu and Sharon.  It's really not a big deal.  Do you think that's a serious statement of intent?

[LongTimeLurker]

This is coming from a regime that executes homosexuals and atheists and denies women equality so these are religious nutters that follow through on their rhetoric, but Corbyn and co don't seem to want to make that their cause celebre but are fixated instead by Israel. Why is that?

[Peppino Impastato]

3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

This is coming from a regime that executes homosexuals and atheists and denies women equality so these are religious nutters that follow through on their rhetoric, but Corbyn and co don't seem to want to make that their cause celebre but are fixated instead by Israel. Why is that?

Aye but they're hardly going to wipe Israel off the map are they?  Those are not the same things.  It's just hot air.  Israel have said similar things about them and Israel have nuclear weapons, that's much more concerning.

[Granny Danger]

Corbyn has been Labour leader for 3 years and until very recently the claims of anti-Semitism have been sporadic and low key.

Now there’s the possibility of an election in the offing, an election Labour can win and this story is on the news every night.  It is stoked by political opponents particularly those in his own party.

Anyone who sees this as anything other than a well orchestrated anti-Labour campaign is thick or in self-denial. 

[LongTimeLurker]

You seem to like Nazi analogies, so the obvious one in this context is that it was a mistake for people in the 1930s to assume that the contents of Mein Kampf were just hot air. Sometimes extremists actually really do mean it. Given Israel emerged based on the guilt trip that went with Western democracies making that mistake with Adolf H, it's unreasonable to expect the Israelis to just laugh it off and assume that one-state solutions to create a utopian future with people who routinely use this type of rhetoric is the way to go, but that's what the likes of George Galloway and some of the people than Jeremy Corbyn likes to share platforms with tend to advocate. The question is why they push this crackpot line of reasoning rather than championing the cause of the Iranian opposition that want a more secular society than the one run by the ayatollahs?

[Benjamin_Nevis]

This is coming from a regime that executes homosexuals and atheists and denies women equality so these are religious nutters that follow through on their rhetoric, but Corbyn and co don't seem to want to make that their cause celebre but are fixated instead by Israel. Why is that?

We talking about Hamas or the Orange Order here?

[vikingTON]

Corbyn has been Labour leader for 3 years and until very recently the claims of anti-Semitism have been sporadic and low key.
Now there’s the possibility of an election in the offing, an election Labour can win and this story is on the news every night.  It is stoked by political opponents particularly those in his own party.
Anyone who sees this as anything other than a well orchestrated anti-Labour campaign is thick or in self-denial. 

Except that revisionist account is not even remotely the case - the Mumbleclown and his fellow travellers have come under major scrutiny on this issue from the beginning of his leadership. They’ve already had time to launch and conclude an internal investigation into the matter after the issue blew up in their face previously FFS.

The persistent weakness for Labour- apart from being a permanent, busted flush in Scotland of course - comes from the fact that the Mumbleclown is willing to turn a blind eye to anti-Semites and plenty of other wallopers in Momentum so long as they’re broadly with him on support for Palestine and other issues. That’s an open goal of his making; not the result of a refereeing conspiracy.

[parsforlife]

You seem to like Nazi analogies, so the obvious one in this context is that it was a mistake for people in the 1930s to assume that the contents of Mein Kampf were just hot air. Sometimes extremists actually really do mean it. Given Israel emerged based on the guilt trip that went with Western democracies making that mistake with Adolf H, it's unreasonable to expect the Israelis to just laugh it off and assume that one-state solutions to create a utopian future with people who routinely use this type of rhetoric is the way to go, but that's what the likes of George Galloway and some of the people than Jeremy Corbyn likes to share platforms with tend to advocate. The question is why they push this crackpot line of reasoning rather than championing the cause of the Iranian opposition that want a more secular society than the

one run by the ayatollahs?

 

Can you please shut the f**k up about George Galloway. He's a total nobody who has very few followers. Managed to get a few behind him with his opposition to Iraq but that's given a platform and people have realised he's not worth any attention.

 

On the general topic, labour is no more full of bigots as any other party. We have a minority party in government who openly deny gay rignts(meaning the majority in the party support this, given its unopposed for years). A majority party who had senior representatives meeting up with facist and yet the media are attacking labour very small-part of their membership.

 

I have no doubt anti-semitism exists in the Labour Party, but this doesn't relate to its leadership or majority in its membership.

 

When the closest thing you can call anti-semitism is calling out Israel politicians on acting being scumbags then your absolutely clutching at straws.

 

ETA.

 

It's a quite bizarre quirk of history that judisism and isreal somehow get intertwined . They should be completely separate and debated independently.

[vikingTON]

 
ETA.
 
It's a quite bizarre quirk of history that judisism and isreal somehow get intertwined . They should be completely separate and debated independently.

Lol wut

Yes, all those Jewish settlers forming a state called ‘Israel’ in the Jordan Valley and surrounding plains was essentially a random outcome. It was just as likely that a state called Israel would have been formed while a plurality of Jews chose Svalbard or the Outer Hebrides as their homeland instead.

[Peppino Impastato]

37 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

You seem to like Nazi analogies, so the obvious one in this context is that it was a mistake for people in the 1930s to assume that the contents of Mein Kampf were just hot air. Sometimes extremists actually really do mean it. Given Israel emerged based on the guilt trip that went with Western democracies making that mistake with Adolf H, it's unreasonable to expect the Israelis to just laugh it off and assume that one-state solutions to create a utopian future with people who routinely use this type of rhetoric is the way to go, but that's what the likes of George Galloway and some of the people than Jeremy Corbyn likes to share platforms with tend to advocate. The question is why they push this crackpot line of reasoning rather than championing the cause of the Iranian opposition that want a more secular society than the one run by the ayatollahs?

So netanyahu does mean it then?  Cause Israel have the means, Iran do not.  You're looking in the wrong place.

[Peppino Impastato]

4 minutes ago, virginton said:

 

Lol wut

Yes, all those Jewish settlers forming a state called ‘Israel’ in the Jordan Valley and surrounding plains was essentially a random outcome. It was just as likely that a state called Israel would have been formed while a plurality of Jews chose Svalbard or the Outer Hebrides as their homeland instead.

 

The Jewish homeland was actually originally going to be in Utah as it happens.

[NotThePars]

Worth remembering that Israel and many of its allies want to make peaceful protests such as BDS illegal as well.

[Detournement]

43 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

You seem to like Nazi analogies, so the obvious one in this context is that it was a mistake for people in the 1930s to assume that the contents of Mein Kampf were just hot air. Sometimes extremists actually really do mean it. Given Israel emerged based on the guilt trip that went with Western democracies making that mistake with Adolf H, it's unreasonable to expect the Israelis to just laugh it off and assume that one-state solutions to create a utopian future with people who routinely use this type of rhetoric is the way to go, but that's what the likes of George Galloway and some of the people than Jeremy Corbyn likes to share platforms with tend to advocate. The question is why they push this crackpot line of reasoning rather than championing the cause of the Iranian opposition that want a more secular society than the one run by the ayatollahs?

Utopian meaning not a racist, apartheid system and no violent occupation?

[parsforlife]

Lol wut

Yes, all those Jewish settlers forming a state called ‘Israel’ in the Jordan Valley and surrounding plains was essentially a random outcome. It was just as likely that a state called Israel would have been formed while a plurality of Jews chose Svalbard or the Outer Hebrides as their homeland instead.

You know that's not true.

What I mean is whilst someone who asks for Jewish people to justify the disgraceful actions of isreal is almost certainly anti-semitic . Someone who is asking Israel to justify its disgraceful actions is clearly not attacking everyone who happens to be Jewish.

[welshbairn]

The Jewish homeland was actually originally going to be in Utah as it happens.

Uganda was another option.I think Bavaria would have been fair. Israel behind the 67 borders is a fait au complit, how ever it was founded. It's established its right to exist by the force of arms and the generations that that were born there. What they can't legitimately do is rule people while denying them the vote to preserve a Jewish majority. You have to be Jewish in the West Bank to vote for your rulers.

[LongTimeLurker]

26 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Utopian meaning not a racist, apartheid system and no violent occupation?

A glib and superficial question that ignores the fact that an outcome of that type can be achieved with a two-state solution and that Israel has a 20% Arab minority that elects a sizable block of members of the Knesset, while in contrast the Jewish population in other Middle Eastern countries has gone from 800,000 in 1948 to less than 4000 in the present day with the vast majority of that population having had to flee without any compensation for the property they left behind and with no right of return. The question is why so many people on the left have become absolutely fixated by Israel and tend to have hee haw to say about injustices in other parts of the Middle East? You would almost get the impression that a cynical calculation has been made that pushing the Palestine issue but having a lot less to say about human rights issues in Saudi Arabia and Iran is a good way to secure the support of Muslim voters who have tended to vote Labour rather than Conservative.

Edited August 3, 2018 by LongTimeLurker

[welshbairn]

Saudi Arabia and Iran aren't occupying and blockading other people's land while denying them a vote. Qatar might quibble with this, but they can look after themselves, unlike Yemen.

 

 

[vikingTON]

You know that's not true.

What I mean is whilst someone who asks for Jewish people to justify the disgraceful actions of isreal is almost certainly anti-semitic . Someone who is asking Israel to justify its disgraceful actions is clearly not attacking everyone who happens to be Jewish.

That’s not a ‘bizarre quirk’ of history as you claimed though. Israel is a nation state founded and sustained by an identity based both on Judaism as well as historical-religious claims to the current territory of Israeli (which is where the ‘yeah but early Zionists also considered Madagascar’ argument heads off into its own pointless cul-de-sac, because there’s no evidence that counter factual could have ever resulted in the creation of a powerful Israeli nationalism that we see today).

That of course doesn’t make Jews as a group collectively answerable for the Israeli state’s actions (although given the heavy lobbying efforts by some of the Jewish diaspora communities the distinction between Israeli citizens and non-Israeli Jews is not a simple cut-off either) but there is an enormous amount of historical baggage attaching the two ideas that can’t be disregarded just because you want to do so.

[NotThePars]

LTL claiming the left doesn’t protest Saudi Arabia lol

[pandarilla]

Except that revisionist account is not even remotely the case - the Mumbleclown and his fellow travellers have come under major scrutiny on this issue from the beginning of his leadership. They’ve already had time to launch and conclude an internal investigation into the matter after the issue blew up in their face previously FFS.

The persistent weakness for Labour- apart from being a permanent, busted flush in Scotland of course - comes from the fact that the Mumbleclown is willing to turn a blind eye to anti-Semites and plenty of other wallopers in Momentum so long as they’re broadly with him on support for Palestine and other issues. That’s an open goal of his making; not the result of a refereeing conspiracy.

What do you think of the media's reporting of this issue?

Do you honestly believe this is fair game and reasonably balanced?