Linlithgow Rose - 2019 onwards

[8MileBU]

A page or two of Yer Da’s whataboutery right there.

It’s far, far too early to be making any calls on who’ll end up where and who’ll win what. On the face of it it’s quite a strong league this year and for me there’s 5 or 6 teams all with a fair chance of going the distance, but the same 5 or 6 teams on their day can all beat each other.

Whoever said February is the time it’ll be be a bit clearer is probably right. That’s the time when you can compare the run-in and see who’s got the fixtures or form to be in with a real shout. Hopefully having left the Juniors and more clubs grounds improving, it’ll be a more level playing field in the run-in and we won’t see teams chances being scuppered by horrendous, Saturday, Monday, Wednesday fixtures to the middle of June.

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 hour ago, 8MileBU said:

A page or two of Yer Da’s whataboutery right there.

It’s far, far too early to be making any calls on who’ll end up where and who’ll win what. On the face of it it’s quite a strong league this year and for me there’s 5 or 6 teams all with a fair chance of going the distance, but the same 5 or 6 teams on their day can all beat each other.

Whoever said February is the time it’ll be be a bit clearer is probably right. That’s the time when you can compare the run-in and see who’s got the fixtures or form to be in with a real shout. Hopefully having left the Juniors and more clubs grounds improving, it’ll be a more level playing field in the run-in and we won’t see teams chances being scuppered by horrendous, Saturday, Monday, Wednesday fixtures to the middle of June.

Title race needs to be done by 2nd may if sosfl dont provide licenced champion you may get extra week

[Guest]

Do any fans of any other club anywhere in the world know what the operating costs and player budget is? They don't. That is private for the people running the club and the management team.

I don't agree with that. I don't need to know pounds and pence, but I think it's pretty reasonable that fans know what they are able to expect from the team they support. If a manager has more resources than others around him and the team aren't doing so well, then that reflects badly on the manager. If they're over-performing, it reflects well on the manager. If Linlithgow Rose had, say, twice as much to spend on players as anyone else in the league then it would be fair enough to expect better results than we're getting this season. I'm sure that's not the case but it's the kind of thing fans are entitled to know.
I couldn't make the AGM because of work, maybe budgets were discussed then.
Lots of people claim to know how much cash clubs have, how much players get, but I've never known if they were bullshitting, or if they really knew, and if they did, how they knew. Clearly some here have been on committees before, so I presume they speak from experience.
 

[8MileBU]

Title race needs to be done by 2nd may if sosfl dont provide licenced champion you may get extra week

Aye, right enough.

[HibeeJibee]

4 hours ago, 8MileBU said:

Hopefully having left the Juniors and more clubs grounds improving, it’ll be a more level playing field in the run-in and we won’t see teams chances being scuppered by horrendous, Saturday, Monday, Wednesday fixtures to the middle of June.

Since joining pyramid the EOSL/Premier Division title race has ended on May 16th, May 20th, May 13th, April 28th and April 20th (depending on playoffs etc.)... in 6 seasons prior to that ended on May 22nd, May 8th, May 14th, May 21st (waterlogged from May 18th), May 18th and April 23rd.  This season is May 2nd.

In the last 12yrs the only instances of any club playing 2 games in 1 midweek were:
* Spartans catching-up 1 league game 9yrs ago
* Stirling Uni catching-up 1 league game 8yrs ago
* Whitehill catching-up 1 league game in 7yrs ago
* LTHV catching-up 1 league game in 2015-16, 2 in 2016-17 and 2 in 2017-18 (aka "Saughton: the Water Polo Years")
* Bonnyrigg catching-up 2 cup-ties last season (although latter was Mon-Thu = 2 clear days)

Edited October 2, 2019 by HibeeJibee

[FuzzyBear]

Jimmy Crease in charge until new manager appointed.

[Auld Heid]

14 hours ago, FuzzyBear said:

Jimmy Crease in charge until new manager appointed.

Not many Rose legends left these days - Jimmy will already know the issues as a regular attender anyways. 

[GordonS]

17 hours ago, G4Mac said:

Do any fans of any other club anywhere in the world know what the operating costs and player budget is? They don't. That is private for the people running the club and the management team.

That's not even in the ballpark of true or accurate, the fans of every club with published accounts have a pretty good idea. For instance, that's how we know Celtic's total wage bill in 2018 was £59.3 million. 

The only reason we don't know the same information for the vast majority of non-league clubs is because they are too small or not incorporated in a way that requires them to return detailed accounts.

[GlamourBaws]

22 minutes ago, GordonS said:

That's not even in the ballpark of true or accurate, the fans of every club with published accounts have a pretty good idea. For instance, that's how we know Celtic's total wage bill in 2018 was £59.3 million. 

The only reason we don't know the same information for the vast majority of non-league clubs is because they are too small or not incorporated in a way that requires them to return detailed accounts.

You are right here... though there are a few distinctions / clarifications to be made though i suspect this is what you are getting at. 

Celtic, as an example, are publicly listed, and thus accounts need to be made public to the stock exchange - fans and non-fans alike cane see these. Privately owned clubs do not need to publish accounts in such detail, though they need to disclose to Companies House I believe. 

LRFC are not a publicly listed company, and are member owned. As a member owned club, the members get the details of the accounts at the AGM. The accounts are also available for a period of time after this for viewing in the club along with the AGM minutes, on production of your membership card. 

This is the difference though - "fans" dont get sight of them unless they are a member of the club and i would suspect that this is the same for most clubs at our level. What counts as a member differs greatly from club to club, depending on their constitution. 

What wont show on these accounts, no matter the size of the club or how it is owned or incorporated, is any cash / off book payments (see my post above) - whether that is Rangers using an EBT to pay "loans" or a Junior / EOS club paying cash under the table. Both situations, would give rise to a tax bill if uncovered. Therefore seeing the true size of the budget, is difficult, if not impossible. Any real attempt to do this is a futile exercise, and all that is left is a "my dad is bigger than your did" type conjecture based argument.

[Guest]

That's not even in the ballpark of true or accurate, the fans of every club with published accounts have a pretty good idea. For instance, that's how we know Celtic's total wage bill in 2018 was £59.3 million. 

The only reason we don't know the same information for the vast majority of non-league clubs is because they are too small or not incorporated in a way that requires them to return detailed accounts.

Okay so you can get an overall idea of a budget for a clubs running costs.

 

Not that I care overly much but you have me intrigued as to why it makes a difference to know what the budget is? Why do you, as a Linlithgow fan, feel that you should know what your players earn? What difference will this information make? How will it improve the clubs performance and/or indeed your perception of a players performance level?

 

I stand firm in my view that it is not a right of any fan to know what a player earns, nor should it matter what your club spends on players. That for me has always been, and should always be, private between the players, the manager and the committee.

 

[Belter1]

I would like to know how my club is being run. There’s been clubs that have been spending big and ended up folding or close to folding as a result. Thinks it’s more important to know in smaller clubs like ourselves where the money is spent. I wouldn’t be giving my contributions knowing it’s getting thrown away on crazy signing on fees and wages that could put the club in trouble.

It’s hard enough getting money from the local community and if the locals know the club is spending silly and getting no results then they might not contribute.

There’s not many billionaires looking to get involved at our level

[Guest]

I would like to know how my club is being run. There’s been clubs that have been spending big and ended up folding or close to folding as a result. Thinks it’s more important to know in smaller clubs like ourselves where the money is spent. I wouldn’t be giving my contributions knowing it’s getting thrown away on crazy signing on fees and wages that could put the club in trouble.

It’s hard enough getting money from the local community and if the locals know the club is spending silly and getting no results then they might not contribute.

There’s not many billionaires looking to get involved at our level

There is more to determining how a club is 'run' than just a wage bill for the season. Look at the work clubs are doing off of the park these days in making their grounds a better place to watch football and more accessible to a multitude if fans.

Fans may well want to know an overall operating budget, which is a reasonable request, although without every other club doing the same thing you are not going to have a true reflection or comparison.

For me, any wages/expenses negotiated are a private matter for the club and players. Fans don't need to know those details. Fans need to know the intended direction of travel and what the club is aiming for.

Local businesses, or any business for that matter, will not stop investing or refuse to invest because they don't know what the wage bill is. They will invest, continue to invest or stop investing based most likely on what direction the club is going, what success they are having and how invested in the local community the club is.

[Specky]

I have no doubts that the committee at the rose will be living within their means based on appropriate financial forecasting and budget.

I know of several players we missed out on due to wages and the fact other teams could offer almost 50% more than the rose offered. Whether that was feasible thru creative accounting you'll never know but our committee will have a budget and won't pay silly money just to get a player.

There are a lot of intangibles which attract players to our club also in terms of the way they are treated, training kits, kit laundry, boot cleaning etc where players essentially just have to turn up and everything is there ready for them. Stuart McIntyre could put many a professional kit man to shame!

Ross Allum wanted to join the rose a few seasons back as I believe he grew up a rose fan, so if it was a choice between camelon or the rose I don't think money would be his first influence.

The committee work hard to raise ongoing funds to sustain and remain within our budget and it's annoying to read ill informed posts spouting that we seem to spend millions on players and wages just because of who we are! As a licenced club we are potentially more restricted than others as we need to set out and achieve financial criteria as well as try to be successful on the park, there are no brown envelopes or "jobs" here.

have we fallen behind a little on the field?, possibly but not to the point that it's terminal. We're still playing catch up from previous I feel but we were looking better. Not every signing will be a golden nugget and other than a couple (and I accept they are in important positions) our signings have been good - Barbour, Allum, Hutchinson. Meikle have all done great with the others beginning to settle in too.

Wd just need a wee tweak and some luck that's all. Do I think the event of this week were a knee jerk reaction? Yes possibly but that's between the committee and Mark.

HTG!

[Belter1]

There is more to determining how a club is 'run' than just a wage bill for the season. Look at the work clubs are doing off of the park these days in making their grounds a better place to watch football and more accessible to a multitude if fans.

Fans may well want to know an overall operating budget, which is a reasonable request, although without every other club doing the same thing you are not going to have a true reflection or comparison.

For me, any wages/expenses negotiated are a private matter for the club and players. Fans don't need to know those details. Fans need to know the intended direction of travel and what the club is aiming for.

Local businesses, or any business for that matter, will not stop investing or refuse to invest because they don't know what the wage bill is. They will invest, continue to invest or stop investing based most likely on what direction the club is going, what success they are having and how invested in the local community the club is.

I understand what you are saying. Tranents wage bill was around 60 per cent of there overall turnover. Income is at its highest it has possibly ever been. I know we are paying decent wages now and I am comfortable with the budget as I know what’s coming into the club.

Agree I don’t need to know what individual players are on but there are exceptions. You do get money mercenaries in football that don’t care about the club. We have had that with Kevin Thomson who was looking for a big pay day. The club soon got rid of Kevin when he didn’t want to train or wanted to do television work instead of coming to the games. I new what deal Kevin was on and was unhappy hearing he didn’t want to train or show up on Saturdays as was other supporters. Also the players hear what others are on and can upset the dressing room if there not pulling there weight. If my club was continuing down that road and squandering money I know for a fact the supporters would have let them know about it and it would possibly effect income.

End of the day you want to know your club is being run properly. Doesn’t matter if your premier league or non league.

[GordonS]

17 hours ago, G4Mac said:

Okay so you can get an overall idea of a budget for a clubs running costs.

 

Not that I care overly much but you have me intrigued as to why it makes a difference to know what the budget is? Why do you, as a Linlithgow fan, feel that you should know what your players earn? What difference will this information make? How will it improve the clubs performance and/or indeed your perception of a players performance level?

 

I stand firm in my view that it is not a right of any fan to know what a player earns, nor should it matter what your club spends on players. That for me has always been, and should always be, private between the players, the manager and the committee.

 

I've already answered that very clearly - so I know what's fair to expect from the players and the management. At the top end of the game, where we know the operating budgets of clubs, we all know it's not fair to expect Aberdeen, Hearts or Hibs to challenge the Old Firm, and we know that clubs like Livi and Accies are doing very well to stay ahead of clubs with bigger budgets. So as a Linlithgow Rose fan, I don't know whether we ought to be romping the league or exactly where we are. I know we've spent a lot on facilities lately (about which I'm very impressed), so I know it's a mistake to make a guess about budgets based on crowd sizes.

Bottom line is, (and you hit the nail on the head when you mention players' performance level) I've no idea if a player like Scullion is the best we can get and that's just our level, or if we should be able to bring in better defenders. I don't know if we can bring in defenders as good as those at, say, Bonnyrigg, or whether this is as good as we can afford. I don't know whether our peers or benchmark is Broxburn or Albion Rovers. As a fan and a member, I think that's something of which I should have at least some understanding.

For the life of me I can't understand how that's not obvious and reasonable to everyone. 

[GordonS]

4 hours ago, Belter1 said:

Agree I don’t need to know what individual players are on but there are exceptions...

End of the day you want to know your club is being run properly. Doesn’t matter if your premier league or non league.

 

FWIW, I definitely don't need or want the club to tell me what individual players are being paid. When I asked about that, I was asking people who claim to be in the know about these things. You see player wages being discussed at all levels of professional football, but I had literally no idea what Scottish non-league got paid. I'm still not much wiser.

[FuzzyBear]

1 minute ago, GordonS said:

FWIW, I definitely don't need or want the club to tell me what individual players are being paid. When I asked about that, I was asking people who claim to be in the know about these things. You see player wages being discussed at all levels of professional football, but I had literally no idea what Scottish non-league got paid. I'm still not much wiser.

As far as I am aware the Rose will be paying on average around £100 a week. The top earners are on a bit more than that with some a bit less. 

[Fife Journeyman]

29 minutes ago, FuzzyBear said:

As far as I am aware the Rose will be paying on average around £100 a week. The top earners are on a bit more than that with some a bit less. 

if thats the case there are clubs doing just as well on half that some even less.

[sponsorsladdie]

FWIW, I definitely don't need or want the club to tell me what individual players are being paid. When I asked about that, I was asking people who claim to be in the know about these things. You see player wages being discussed at all levels of professional football, but I had literally no idea what Scottish non-league got paid. I'm still not much wiser.

If you are a season ticket holder you get to see the finances at the AGM and can ask any questions you want.

I don’t think any members club should be divulging any financial information to any members.

I’d also be surprised if the whole committee knew what individual wages are paid. I’m sure they would know the budget and how they were tracking against that.

Wages are between the players and treasurer (maybe a couple other office bearers) I’m sure that you don’t know the wages paid to everyone at your work.

[Culter Away]

2 hours ago, GordonS said:

I've already answered that very clearly - so I know what's fair to expect from the players and the management. At the top end of the game, where we know the operating budgets of clubs, we all know it's not fair to expect Aberdeen, Hearts or Hibs to challenge the Old Firm, and we know that clubs like Livi and Accies are doing very well to stay ahead of clubs with bigger budgets. So as a Linlithgow Rose fan, I don't know whether we ought to be romping the league or exactly where we are. I know we've spent a lot on facilities lately (about which I'm very impressed), so I know it's a mistake to make a guess about budgets based on crowd sizes.

Bottom line is, (and you hit the nail on the head when you mention players' performance level) I've no idea if a player like Scullion is the best we can get and that's just our level, or if we should be able to bring in better defenders. I don't know if we can bring in defenders as good as those at, say, Bonnyrigg, or whether this is as good as we can afford. I don't know whether our peers or benchmark is Broxburn or Albion Rovers. As a fan and a member, I think that's something of which I should have at least some understanding.

For the life of me I can't understand how that's not obvious and reasonable to everyone. 

If you went to the club's AGM you would have at least some understanding.

I don't expect any club officials to divulge their playing budgets on a forum like this - it should be for member / stakeholder consumption only. Putting information like that in the public domain risks putting themselves at a disadvantage in transfer / signing negotiations.

So in conclusion, don't look for answers here, look inside your own club when the chance arises.