Billy Gilmour

[Molotov]

5 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

No I'm not.

It's one of the reasons I'm not saying stupid, instantly disprovable things like "Billy Brenner was named as European Player of the Year".

Who?

Apologies Billy Bremner was the English 1970 FWA POTY.

 

[Monkey Tennis]

3 minutes ago, Molotov said:

Who?

Apologies Billy Bremner was the English 1970 FWA POTY.

 

Good spot on the typo, since corrected.

There's quite a difference between the awards.  

 

I'm not saying Bremner wasn't a top player.  He was.   

I do think, however, that you're implying that the reason top English sides no longer field loads of Scots is down to how few good players we produce. 

You seem to be ignoring the hugely relevant fact that these clubs move now in completely different markets.

[Binos]

10 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Good spot on the typo, since corrected.

There's quite a difference between the awards.  

 

I'm not saying Bremner wasn't a top player.  He was.   

I do think, however, that you're implying that the reason top English sides no longer field loads of Scots is down to how few good players we produce. 

You seem to be ignoring the hugely relevant fact that these clubs move now in completely different markets.

And we produce no good players 

Other than a couple of left backs 

[Monkey Tennis]

1 minute ago, Binos said:

And we produce no good players 

Other than a couple of left backs 

That's not exactly true, but we do produce fewer, even in British terms, than we used to.  For a long time, it was disproportionate.

They had a route to top flight football either side of the border, that no longer exists in the same way it did though.

[Gordopolis]

10 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

No, but I don't think it's necessarily the case that any but Dalglish would play for top end teams.

 

IMO:

Bremner would fare roughly as John McGinn has at a midling EPL club, as a key player.

Gemmill would be bottom end EPL/top end championship - a tricky squad player for a mid-level EPL team at best.

Souness would probably be a midfield enforcer for a top six side.

Hansen - for some reason I can't make my mind up.

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, Gordopolis said:

Hansen - for some reason I can't make my mind up.

He would be in a band with his 2 brothers singing Mmmmbop

[Satoshi]

Molotov with the classic Scottish football used to be great and is now full of rubbish players who can't make it routine.

At Billy Gilmours age, Alan Hansen was playing for Partick Thistle in the Scottish second tier.

Stop writing off players so young and being incredibly negative about everything to do with Scottish football.

Classic things were better in ma day denialism. Life moves on.

 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

10 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

What's funny?

The top English sides bore no relation then, to the current incarnations in terms of their composition.  

Gemmill was a good industrious midfielder who improved a couple of clubs and scored a famous international goal.  He was no superstar though.

The Bremner who won the European Cup wasn't called Billy.

but he should have accompanied Des.

Leeds were cheated !

[Savage Henry]

42 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Molotov with the classic Scottish football used to be great and is now full of rubbish players who can't make it routine.

At Billy Gilmours age, Alan Hansen was playing for Partick Thistle in the Scottish second tier.

Stop writing off players so young and being incredibly negative about everything to do with Scottish football.

Classic things were better in ma day denialism. Life moves on.

 

I assume he’s trolling.  
 

As has been asked repeatedly, who is being kept out of the squad by Billy Gilmour?  There’s absolutely no drawback whatsoever from having him in the squad.  

[ahemps]

55 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

 

IMO:

Bremner would fare roughly as John McGinn has at a midling EPL club, as a key player.

Gemmill would be bottom end EPL/top end championship - a tricky squad player for a mid-level EPL team at best.

Souness would probably be a midfield enforcer for a top six side.

Hansen - for some reason I can't make my mind up.

Bremner was in a team that regular went far in European competitions, finals and semis of the European cup, winning the cup winners cup and Fairs cup and was voted the best player in in Leeds greatest ever era.

Gemmill won the English league with Derby then was signed for and won the league with Notts Forest who despite personally not playing in a European final was in the squad of the team who did. Derby also went to the European cup semi final so were not some piss poor team.

Souness also won major European trophies with the most dominant team in Europe at its peak.

To say these guys would be mid to bottom level EPL today is blatantly not true due to the fact they were main performers for some of the top clubs in Europe at their time.

I would give you some leeway if they played during periods where English clubs were terrible in Europe but they were not and that has to be what you measure them against. They also have to be measured in their era and they were none of the things you are suggesting.

[ahemps]

11 hours ago, Molotov said:

Robertson has been the one that had really stood out in the EPL and Europe - consistently.

None of the others have won anything of note down south in comparison to the players I watched in my childhood and youth. That was the point I was making.

We all had very high hopes for Gauld, Burke, Paterson and Gilmour.

Teirney and McGinn had both won major honours at young ages before going south so I never included them.

Perhaps it’s an age difference and you never experienced the players of my generation who were actually World Class. 

 

Is Tierneys FA cup not of note?

[ahemps]

12 hours ago, Jambomo said:

I do agree that the focus on Celtic and Rangers, especially in the champions league has long contributed to ruining our league,  but the football here isn’t really good enough to develop players from kids into outstanding players. I don’t think it’s got much to do with foreign players, it has more to do with lack of money, a lack of competition overall and too much variance of the standard of teams in the league.

 

 

Celtic and Rangers are awful at developing talent and have to take a look at themselves for this. They play in a non competitive league where they have a huge opportunity to give kids playing time but they choose not too. Ajax and Benfica are in the exact same scenario in that they are in a 2-3 horse race but manage to develop talent at an impressive rate, the teams they compete with Porto, Sporting, PSV and Feyenoord also do a good job of this. The OF could play 1-2 youths every home game (except against each other) and still win comfortably and probably do the same away from home as well. They could be giving game time to many and finding a few diamonds but they absolutely fail in this regard.

[craigkillie]

9 minutes ago, ahemps said:

Bremner was in a team that regular went far in European competitions, finals and semis of the European cup, winning the cup winners cup and Fairs cup and was voted the best player in in Leeds greatest ever era.

Gemmill won the English league with Derby then was signed for and won the league with Notts Forest who despite personally not playing in a European final was in the squad of the team who did. Derby also went to the European cup semi final so were not some piss poor team.

Souness also won major European trophies with the most dominant team in Europe at its peak.

To say these guys would be mid to bottom level EPL today is blatantly not true due to the fact they were main performers for some of the top clubs in Europe at their time.

I would give you some leeway if they played during periods where English clubs were terrible in Europe but they were not and that has to be what you measure them against. They also have to be measured in their era and they were none of the things you are suggesting.

More or less every club in Europe had only domestic players at that time, so the same sort of argument as before would also apply. Top level football was a lot more equitable in that era, so progressing in the European Cup basically meant being better than the best group of Spanish or Italian players, not having to be part of a team that beat a World XI like PSG or Real Madrid.

[dundeefc1783]

18 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

I assume he’s trolling.  
 

As has been asked repeatedly, who is being kept out of the squad by Billy Gilmour?  There’s absolutely no drawback whatsoever from having him in the squad.  

Was there potential for the young lad Hackney at Middlesbrough or Campbell at Luton to be in the squad. I can't confess to know lots about them but both are playing regularly in teams challenging for promotion. 

[Gordopolis]

41 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

More or less every club in Europe had only domestic players at that time, so the same sort of argument as before would also apply. Top level football was a lot more equitable in that era, so progressing in the European Cup basically meant being better than the best group of Spanish or Italian players, not having to be part of a team that beat a World XI like PSG or Real Madrid.

Yeah, pretty much that

[ahemps]

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

More or less every club in Europe had only domestic players at that time, so the same sort of argument as before would also apply. Top level football was a lot more equitable in that era, so progressing in the European Cup basically meant being better than the best group of Spanish or Italian players, not having to be part of a team that beat a World XI like PSG or Real Madrid.

I accept that but you have to look at what they done in their own era. English clubs dominated Europe and players playing in these teams must have been generally better or they would not have done so. To then say the captain of the most dominant team in Europe who won 3 European cups is in todays world only at mid table EPL level is ignoring basic facts when he was literally playing and winning the biggest club competition on a regular basis.

[Molotov]

5 hours ago, ahemps said:

Is Tierneys FA cup not of note?

Yeah I overlooked that. Apologies.

The FA cup sadly has been devalued as a tournament by all/most (depending on league position) of the big sides in favour of the Champions League filthy lucre.

Managers are likely told by owners to prioritise league position over anything else. 

That probably holds true at all levels of the EPL as relegation is a massive issue despite parachute payments. 

 

 

[Monkey Tennis]

9 hours ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

but he should have accompanied Des.

Leeds were cheated !

Yes, they were.

Wildly cheated.

[Monkey Tennis]

7 hours ago, ahemps said:

To then say the captain of the most dominant team in Europe who won 3 European cups is in todays world only at mid table EPL level is ignoring basic facts when he was literally playing and winning the biggest club competition on a regular basis.

I know you're not referring to John McGovern here.  Only 2 for him.

He'd almost fit the bill though, and while a good consistent player, his cap count points to his actual stature.

[Monkey Tennis]

9 hours ago, craigkillie said:

More or less every club in Europe had only domestic players at that time, so the same sort of argument as before would also apply. Top level football was a lot more equitable in that era, so progressing in the European Cup basically meant being better than the best group of Spanish or Italian players, not having to be part of a team that beat a World XI like PSG or Real Madrid.

Totally this.

I'm not knocking it.  I'd give anything for football to again be more equitable.  The point though, is that the landscape has changed so vastly that the like for like comparisons being attempted, just don't work.