General Election 2019 - AND IT’S LIVE!

[dorlomin]

There is a good case for nationalising "backbone" infrastructure that forms natural monopolies, the national grid, Centrica and some of the telecoms infrastructure. 

There is also nothing wrong with setting up a system whereby those with low incomes can access broadband, if you are on income support or a pension you can apply for some kind of credit system to get a basic internet package paid for you.

But bundling all this together then trying to sell it to everyone as "free internet for all" may not be the vote winner some think it is. For a start promising free services for most people who currently pay for a service without much struggle is gong to come across as profligate, it is also going to come across as patronising. As if most people are so dumb that giving them £20 a months worth of internet is going to make them forget about policies on issues like Brexit. It will also raise questions about service levels people will be forced to accept or if those who wish to pay for a decent speed will have their bills jacked up to pay for this (just because some politician promises some tax gimmick will pay for it does not mean many will believe them). There will also be issues around net freedom, if the government is supplying the internet will a modern "woke" government be willing to become providers for pornography, political content it finds distasteful and so on. 

The people who think the Sun shines out of Corbyn's arse will be drooling at this, I think it is unlikely to win over many marginal voters. 

This will be an electoral non event at best. 

[Ross.]

16 minutes ago, beefybake said:

In Switzerland, women only got the vote in about 1970.... IIRC.

Their version of democracy doesn't seem very forward looking.

It varied from canton to canton as well as on what type of vote it was. The first granted full voting rights in 1959, and the last place to grant full voting rights only done so in 1991. I think the 1971 date that is often quoted on this was when more than 50% of the cantons were on board with it.

The version of democracy here is light years ahead of the UK version. Still has faults, but it is more open, more accessible and far far more representative than the UK.

[beefybake]

10 minutes ago, Ross. said:

It varied from canton to canton as well as on what type of vote it was. The first granted full voting rights in 1959, and the last place to grant full voting rights only done so in 1991. I think the 1971 date that is often quoted on this was when more than 50% of the cantons were on board with it.

The version of democracy here is light years ahead of the UK version. Still has faults, but it is more open, more accessible and far far more representative than the UK.

TBH..., the combination of your last 2 posts does seem to say, to this onlooker at least, that actually Switzerland is a rather backward country.

1991... before women could vote, and your trying to say what a wonderful democracy it is.   ffs. Pull the other one.

[Poet of the Macabre]

No matter the policy, you can guarantee Labour have underestimated how much it will cost.

[Ross.]

12 minutes ago, beefybake said:

TBH..., the combination of your last 2 posts does seem to say, to this onlooker at least, that actually Switzerland is a rather backward country.

1991... before women could vote, and your trying to say what a wonderful democracy it is.   ffs. Pull the other one.

And your post suggests you would rather look backwards than forwards. As it is right now, Switzerland is a far more representative, modern democracy than the UK is. It may have been behind in the recent past, but right now it is approaching the stage where it will shortly be "lapping" the UK.

[beefybake]

3 hours ago, Poet of the Macabre said:

No matter the policy, you can guarantee Labour have underestimated how much it will cost.

Plain fact is , the rollout of decent broadband in the UK has been rather dismal.   

Also, the more advanced  thinking on internet connection/broadband is that, along with water, electricity....

it is one of the basic necessities of a society.  

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that the last time central government put anything significant into the equation

was when they slashed £300 Million from the BBC licence fee income, and offered it on a piece meal basis to councils to make their

own contracts with bidders to install 'superfast' broadband infrastructur locally.  £300 Million spread around the country is a minimal sum.

The 'free market' hasn't worked particularly well in this matter, so it is hardly a surprise that Labour is proposing the measures it has.

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by beefybake

[Malky3]

34 minutes ago, dorlomin said:

There is a good case for nationalising "backbone" infrastructure that forms natural monopolies, the national grid, Centrica and some of the telecoms infrastructure. 

There is also nothing wrong with setting up a system whereby those with low incomes can access broadband, if you are on income support or a pension you can apply for some kind of credit system to get a basic internet package paid for you.

But bundling all this together then trying to sell it to everyone as "free internet for all" may not be the vote winner some think it is. For a start promising free services for most people who currently pay for a service without much struggle is gong to come across as profligate, it is also going to come across as patronising. As if most people are so dumb that giving them £20 a months worth of internet is going to make them forget about policies on issues like Brexit. It will also raise questions about service levels people will be forced to accept or if those who wish to pay for a decent speed will have their bills jacked up to pay for this (just because some politician promises some tax gimmick will pay for it does not mean many will believe them). There will also be issues around net freedom, if the government is supplying the internet will a modern "woke" government be willing to become providers for pornography, political content it finds distasteful and so on. 

The people who think the Sun shines out of Corbyn's arse will be drooling at this, I think it is unlikely to win over many marginal voters. 

This will be an electoral non event at best. 

I agree with this absolutely. These election bribes are ridiculous, and to claim that it will all be paid for by taxing companies that no country has managed to nail down thus far, is an absolute fallacy and a joke. 

The Labour Party has form on this though. In 2017 Corbyn promised to scrap Student Debt. He pledged, in an interview to NME, that he would immediately scrap tuition fees for all students. He said they would do it as soon as they got into power, He said students from the 2017-18 term year would pay them but that a Labour Government would issue a full rebate. He then went on to say that he "didn't see why those who had the misfortunate to attend university during the £9000 period should be burdened excessively......I will deal with that."

That was then followed up by a number of political interviews, as always happens at election time, and in one of them Labour MP Imran Hussain went further claiming that "every existing student will have all debts written off". Then later the same day Labour MP ans shadow minister, Sharon Hodgson tweeted that Labour "could write off all historic student debts". This was then widely reported as Labour Party policy and it saw them garner a large surge in support which effectively killed Theresa May's majority. 

Of course after the election it was reported and confirmed that Labour would not pay off all historic student debts and Corbyn distanced himself from claims that it was Labour policy. 

The lesson to be learned of course, is never trust a politician, particularly never during a period leading up to an election. 

https://fullfact.org/education/student-debt-what-did-labour-say/

[Malky3]

2 minutes ago, beefybake said:

Plain fact is , the rollout of decent broadband in the UK has been rather dismal.   

Also, the more advanced  thinking on internet connection/broadband is that, along with water, electricity....

it is one of the basic necessities of a society.  

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that the last time central government put anything significant into the equation

was when they slashed £300 Million from the BBC licence fee income, and offered it on a piece meal basis to councils to make their

own contracts with bidders to install 'superfast' broadband infrastructur locally.  £300 Million spread around he country is a minimal sum.

The 'free market' hasn't worked particularly well in this matter, so it is hardly a surprise that Labour is proposing the measures it has.

 

The last time central government put anything significant into the equation was when it struck a deal with Huawei over the roll out of 5g in the UK. Of course progress with that was cancelled this month to placate the US Government who have obvious security concerns about the Chinese company. 

I agree though that fibre optic broadband should have better coverage across the UK. However the problem, as I understand it, is not that funds are the problem, but instead that the number of trained workers are just not there to make the roll out happen any quicker. 

[pandarilla]

Malky believe it or not governments can be completely transformational (although it's rare).

Corbyn is offering something historic. You can't criticise him for offering similar before UNLESS he didn't deliver on it.

If you want a bit more of the same, 'don't rock the boat' party politics - don't vote for him. Plenty of folk will, in the hope that we can start to take a sledgehammer to the neoliberal ideology that has gripped Britain like a cancer since the 1980s. Apologies for mixed metaphors.

[Poet of the Macabre]

I'm sure this has been posted before but this site is excellent

[Malky3]

4 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

Malky believe it or not governments can be completely transformational (although it's rare).

Corbyn is offering something historic. You can't criticise him for offering similar before UNLESS he didn't deliver on it.

If you want a bit more of the same, 'don't rock the boat' party politics - don't vote for him. Plenty of folk will, in the hope that we can start to take a sledgehammer to the neoliberal ideology that has gripped Britain like a cancer since the 1980s. Apologies for mixed metaphors.

So it's OK to promise made up shite and fantasy economics so long as you never get into government, or don't last long enough in government to have to deliver it? Is that what you are saying? 

Look, Labour are living in fantasy land. They've already promised to build more wind farms at a faster rate than the UK has capacity to produce steel at, within a timescale that would be impossible to deliver with the current workforce. McDonnell was challenged on it and stammered about apprenticeships, clearly forgetting that apprenticeships in engineering usually take four years to complete. That was before they pledged yet another huge infrastructure project with broadband. Speak to Openreach Engineers, you'll find many of them installing and maintaining fibre optic connections in many of our towns and villages. Ask them if the workforce is available to get fibre optic broadband to every house in the UK before 2030? Most of them are already working flat out with overtime. 

The Lib Dems are playing the same game today, pledging £billions to make the UK a "climate change friendly" country. Fair enough, but how will they do that? Will they be issuing grants everywhere for heat pumps to be installed? Community heating? How will we generate and store enough electricity to keep, not only the lights on, but the meet the massive demand increases that would be caused by everyone switching to electric transport? Its easy to pledge vast amounts of spending if you don't have to give the detail. 

And the SNP were called out on Wednesday by Andrew Neil raising many of the same questions I've asked on here, SNP David Linden explained in cringeworthy style that the SNP were "very, very clear" on every single point he was asked about, yet he couldn't detail how the SNP were going to reduce the Scottish deficit post Independence from 7% of GDP to the 3% required for EU Membership. He also couldn't detail how the SNP would use Sterling. Asked about Sterlingisation and told that this would mean the rest of the UK setting Scottish economic policy he had no answer, except that Scotland already prints currency - as though that is remotely relevant. 

In the meantime Boris Johnson is being grilled on whether or not he knows how to use a mop and on whether or not he can make a cup of tea! 

Never mind though eh? The electorate is way too stupid to know. 

[pandarilla]

You're treating economic forecasts and political pundits views as gospel.

What do you think was said by the Tories when labour started the NHS? Do you think it was easy and seamless? No-one saying it's 'fantasy economics' to think every punter could get free treatment and care across the country? Of course they did.

They are offering massive change to the British economy. You're so brainwashed in your mindset that you can't imagine anything else working. The city forecasters and the Tories are calling it fantasy and you're parroting their lines.

I just know I'm fed up with the status quo. The price of everything and the value of nothing. There's a North European model of much greater social cohesion, higher public spending and higher taxes.

If you like the status quo, that's ok. But don't deny that massive change could happen.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

24 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

peak to Openreach Engineers, you'll find many of them installing and maintaining fibre optic connections in many of our towns and villages. Ask them if the workforce is available to get fibre optic broadband to every house in the UK before 2030? Most of them are already working flat out with overtime. 

Openreach is a load of pish and been badly mismanaged for years in line with BTs own profit goals. They have pocketed the money instead of training and investing in a workforce that can do the job.

https://www.hso.co.uk/blog/regulation/bt-openreach/is-it-time-bt-was-stripped-of-its-monopoly

https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/culture-media-and-sport-committee/news-parliament-2015/world-class-connectivity-uk-report-published-16-17/

From 2009 to 2016 BT were "significantly underinvesting in Openreach"

 

[welshbairn]

Before BT was privatised they had a feasible plan to fibre optic the whole network. We would have been decades ahead of the rest of the world by the end of the the eighties. Instead they had competing cable companies digging up the same streets to lay their own cables, and it never got out of the major cities.

[John Lambies Doos]

John McDonnell stating that everyone currently working in UK broadband industry will keep their jobs. Bean counter in BT saying that based on Labours costings they would all be on max 7k a year.

NB. Doesn't include cost of all court cases which Vodafone, Sky etc would no doubt take out...

Labour [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Detournement]

I'm loving the Red Scare.

The idea that laying some fibre optics is a utopian pipe dream is mental. How do people think we got millions of council houses, motorways, existing utilities etc?

[pandarilla]

John McDonnell stating that everyone currently working in UK broadband industry will keep their jobs. Bean counter in BT saying that based on Labours costings they would all be on max 7k a year.
NB. Doesn't include cost of all court cases which Vodafone, Sky etc would no doubt take out...
Labour [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
 
 
 
 
 
 

Didn't expect you to fall for this ridiculous right wing media narrative.

[Poet of the Macabre]

Would it not go against EU comp rules? Or are Labour assuming their 2nd referendum would also result in Leave?

[Granny Danger]

The coverage in the MSM of the Labour broadband proposal is absolutely shocking.

Balanced coverage is already out the window.

There has been no coverage that I have seen about the past Tory election promises that have not been delivered, for example on affordable housing.

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, Poet of the Macabre said:

Would it not go against EU comp rules? Or are Labour assuming their 2nd referendum would also result in Leave?

If the provision of free services by a government to the populous is against competition rules how is the NHS allowed to operate?