Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[bendan]

1 minute ago, AUFC90 said:

Of course the UK hasn't. But China has outright lied. It's not misreporting.

Almost all of Chinas cases have completed though. There's still piles of people in America and Britain just waiting to die.

How would China know how many cases it actually had? There were no test kits in the beginning and a shortage for a long time.

I don't think anyone doubts a lot died outside hospitals, but that's exactly what a lot of people are saying has happened in Spain, and could well be happening here and in the US. 

[Guest JTS98]

7 minutes ago, virginton said:

It’s funny how nobody on the thread was bothering much to query their numbers during the peak of their outbreak;

China's numbers from the start of this whole episode have been bullshit, just as they were with SARS, and just like they pretend Tiananman Square didn't happen, just like how they routinely massage GDP figures.

We know that China's early count (the first 2-3 weeks) only included people with sever pneumonia, so no mild or asymptomatic cases will be included in that number. This means they were starting from a position of under-reporting, intentional or not, and they're now on their eighth method of defining countable cases. Applying later definitions to earlier weeks would surely produce a higher number.

Hong Kong's public broadcaster last week reported that hospitals in Wuhan have been refusing to test symptomatic potential cases. Japan's Kyodo media outlet reported Chinese doctors saying that hospitals were made to kick out quarantined patients still showing signs of pneumonia in the run up to Xi's visit. This has all become about presenting a war victory to the Chinese people.

China's Caixin magazine reported a source from China's own CDC saying it cannot be determined whether person to person transmission in Wuhan had been cut off and said there were still a few dozen symptomatic people every day.

The South China Morning Post reported that they had seen documents showing that 43,000 asymptomatic people in China had tested positive up to the end of February but were never included in China's count of 80,000. So, that would suggest a huge level of under-reporting if true. China only accepted asymptomatic cases as reportable less than a fortnight ago.

We all know you like to be a contrarian, but you're pishing into a wind of overwhelming evidence both from this event and from past behaviour by the CCP that all suggests China is not being honest with the rest of the world, or with itself. China is all about stability and targets. Truth doesn't come into the equation.

[AUFC90]

Erm no, South Korea was one of the first countries outside China to experience an epidemic of local transmission, starting in some weirdo church group. Their containment measures in the weeks since have stopped the virus from galloping through the whole population (as the UK wanted to do until three weeks ago) and has resulted in a much lower death rate. The only person who thinks that China has a lower death total than ‘any developed country’ is yourself, largely because you don’t consider non-Western countries to be developed enough to handle an epidemic. 

You seem really desperate to paint me as some white knight for the western powers whilst literally reading nothing that I've posted. Carry on.

[vikingTON]

3 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

China made a c**t of SARS as well. They're just lucky SARS wasn't as infectious. Fact is China downplayed the seriousness of this virus for a lot longer than they should have. No one is disputing that South Korea and Japan aren't better than America at pretty much everything. Im just saying China's figures a way off to anyone with half a brain.

Every serious reporter has observed that China’s handling of coronavirus has been far more effective than SARS because lessons have been learned. Which is how it has managed to pretty much eliminate an outbreak of this more infectious disease in under four months, while Western countries still can’t pencil in a month for when their shan, halfway house shutdowns can be rolled back.

[hk blues]

39 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Ok, and what's the benefit to your average Indian geezer of spending on yachts, expensive paintings, apartments in New York, expensive jewellery, country houses etc?

It's not like the Indian 1% are nipping off down to the local corner restaurant and keeping their local economy going. As much as the trickle-down economics gang would love us all to believe it, that's just not how the wealthy spend their dosh.

Same as in the UK, they are minimising their tax and protecting their wealth for future generations of privilege.

OK, you've sussed the problem.

What's the solution? 

[AUFC90]

Every serious reporter has observed that China’s handling of coronavirus has been far more effective than SARS because lessons have been learned. Which is how it has managed to pretty much eliminate an outbreak of this more infectious disease in under four months, while Western countries still can’t pencil in a month for when their shan, halfway house shutdowns can be rolled back.

Every serious poster bairly observes a word you say so like I say....carry on.

[vikingTON]

12 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

China's numbers from the start of this whole episode have been bullshit, just as they were with SARS, and just like they pretend Tiananman Square didn't happen, just like how they routinely massage GDP figures.

We know that China's early count (the first 2-3 weeks) only included people with sever pneumonia, so no mild or asymptomatic cases will be included in that number. This means they were starting from a position of under-reporting, intentional or not, and they're now on their eighth method of defining countable cases. Applying later definitions to earlier weeks would surely produce a higher number.

Hong Kong's public broadcaster last week reported that hospitals in Wuhan have been refusing to test symptomatic potential cases. Japan's Kyodo media outlet reported Chinese doctors saying that hospitals were made to kick out quarantined patients still showing signs of pneumonia in the run up to Xi's visit. This has all become about presenting a war victory to the Chinese people.

China's Caixin magazine reported a source from China's own CDC saying it cannot be determined whether person to person transmission in Wuhan had been cut off and said there were still a few dozen symptomatic people every day.

The South China Morning Post reported that they had seen documents showing that 43,000 asymptomatic people in China had tested positive up to the end of February but were never included in China's count of 80,000. So, that would suggest a huge level of under-reporting if true. China only accepted asymptomatic cases as reportable less than a fortnight ago.

We all know you like to be a contrarian, but you're pishing into a wind of overwhelming evidence both from this event and from past behaviour by the CCP that all suggests China is not being honest with the rest of the world, or with itself. China is all about stability and targets. Truth doesn't come into the equation.

43,000 asymptomatic people excluded? What percentage of asymptomatic people are currently being included in the UK or the US’ figures, having had fully three months’ advance notice to secure sufficient testing equipment to accurately measure its progress? The answer is quite clearly ‘not that many’, given that the UK’s pointy-headed experts and their ‘models’ can’t determine whether one or fully fifty percent of the population has already been infected by the virus. Will look forward to the UK retrospectively adding 32 million cases to its figures though in due course.

Edited April 8, 2020 by vikingTON

[Guest JTS98]

3 minutes ago, hk blues said:

OK, you've sussed the problem.

What's the solution? 

It's dead simple, enforcement of taxation for all, regardless of wealth.

All that's required is political will, and that comes from the electorate. People need to stop believing that nothing can be done.

[renton]

9 minutes ago, virginton said:

Every serious reporter has observed that China’s handling of coronavirus has been far more effective than SARS because lessons have been learned. Which is how it has managed to pretty much eliminate an outbreak of this more infectious disease in under four months, while Western countries still can’t pencil in a month for when their shan, halfway house shutdowns can be rolled back.

So your all for being welded shut into your abode by the British Army then? 

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

43,000 asymptomatic people excluded? What percentage of asymptomatic people are currently being included in the UK or the US’ current figures, having had fully three months’ advance notice to secure sufficient testing equipment to accurately measure its progress? The answer is quite clearly ‘not that many’, given that the UK’s pointy-headed experts and their ‘models’ can’t determine whether one or fully fifty percent of the population has already been infected by the virus. Will look forward to the UK retrospectively adding 32 million cases to its figures in due course.

You're arguing with a point I haven't made, in a startlingly on-brand response.

Of course the UK and America's responses have been shite. But China's has been shite and dishonest.

The UK has made a complete arse of it by not getting testing in order and giving out stupid public messages. But China is just lying about its numbers. There's simply no question about that.

 

[AUFC90]

You can be certain of one thing. A lot more people will have died in their flats, with no help, in Wuhan than in London when all this is over.

I'm sure the Chinese will be desperate to report some of their valued citizens.

[pandarilla]

Has vton always sooked the chinese boaby or is this a recent development?

[vikingTON]

1 minute ago, AUFC90 said:

Every serious poster bairly observes a word you say so like I say....carry on.

It’s cute to see you and MixuFixit desperately try to rebrand as ‘serious posters’ rather than ‘inconsequential, zero-pointer no-marks’.

[bendan]

14 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

China's numbers from the start of this whole episode have been bullshit, just as they were with SARS, and just like they pretend Tiananman Square didn't happen, just like how they routinely massage GDP figures.

We know that China's early count (the first 2-3 weeks) only included people with sever pneumonia, so no mild or asymptomatic cases will be included in that number. This means they were starting from a position of under-reporting, intentional or not, and they're now on their eighth method of defining countable cases. Applying later definitions to earlier weeks would surely produce a higher number.

Hong Kong's public broadcaster last week reported that hospitals in Wuhan have been refusing to test symptomatic potential cases. Japan's Kyodo media outlet reported Chinese doctors saying that hospitals were made to kick out quarantined patients still showing signs of pneumonia in the run up to Xi's visit. This has all become about presenting a war victory to the Chinese people.

China's Caixin magazine reported a source from China's own CDC saying it cannot be determined whether person to person transmission in Wuhan had been cut off and said there were still a few dozen symptomatic people every day.

The South China Morning Post reported that they had seen documents showing that 43,000 asymptomatic people in China had tested positive up to the end of February but were never included in China's count of 80,000. So, that would suggest a huge level of under-reporting if true. China only accepted asymptomatic cases as reportable less than a fortnight ago.

We all know you like to be a contrarian, but you're pishing into a wind of overwhelming evidence both from this event and from past behaviour by the CCP that all suggests China is not being honest with the rest of the world, or with itself. China is all about stability and targets. Truth doesn't come into the equation.

I don't think anyone believes China's case figures are accurate, but whose figures are? Complaining about them not including asymptomatic cases seems precisely the kind of pissing in the wind you're accusing others of. Anyone taking any case figures for any country at the moment as an accurate reflection of true numbers is nuts.

[AUFC90]

You're arguing with a point I haven't made, in a startlingly on-brand response.
Of course the UK and America's responses have been shite. But China's has been shite and dishonest.
The UK has made a complete arse of it by not getting testing in order and giving out stupid public messages. But China is just lying about its numbers. There's simply no question about that.
 

Which is obvious to anyone that has a basic grasp of numbers. Not all historians like virginton have said grasp though.

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, bendan said:

I don't think anyone believes China's case figures are accurate, but whose figures are? Complaining about them not including asymptomatic cases seems precisely the kind of pissing in the wind you're accusing others of. Anyone taking any case figures for any country at the moment as an accurate reflection of true numbers is nuts.

Quote

The latest figures come amid speculation that the actual number of Covid-19 deaths in Spain is much higher than official figures.

Recently released data from judicial authorities in Madrid, for example, suggest that 6,600 more people than usual died in the last two weeks of March, compared to the official tally of 3,500 Covid-19 deaths in the region.

When pressed, Spain’s health minister argued that Spain’s criteria ranks among the most stringent in Europe. “Everyone who tests positive and dies is counted as having died due to the coronavirus,” Illa told reporters.

His explanation suggests that those who have died in elderly care homes and private residences – the vast majority of whom were not tested for the virus – are not included in the data.

 

[renton]

1 minute ago, bendan said:

I don't think anyone believes China's case figures are accurate, but whose figures are? Complaining about them not including asymptomatic cases seems precisely the kind of pissing in the wind you're accusing others of. Anyone taking any case figures for any country at the moment as an accurate reflection of true numbers is nuts.

It's not the case figures that are being disputed by the West, it's the death figures.

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, bendan said:

I don't think anyone believes China's case figures are accurate, but whose figures are? Complaining about them not including asymptomatic cases seems precisely the kind of pissing in the wind you're accusing others of. Anyone taking any case figures for any country at the moment as an accurate reflection of true numbers is nuts.

Nobody is saying that.

There's a difference between massively cocking up the testing process and deliberately under-reporting your numbers. The Chinese have and seemingly still are indulging in the latter.

The under-reporting at the beginning made it harder for the rest of the world to figure out what it was dealing with. Under reporting now will give the rest of the world a confusing picture of what to expect in terms of a second/third wave.

[vikingTON]

2 minutes ago, renton said:

So your all for being welded shut into your abode by the British Army then? 

The window for an effective, truncheon to the face containment policy was squandered by government dithering and inaction weeks ago.

[Detournement]

4 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

You can be certain of one thing. A lot more people will have died in their flats, with no help, in Wuhan than in London when all this is over.

I'm sure the Chinese will be desperate to report some of their valued citizens.

Why?

The Chinese had a system of block captains where a party official was responsible for a street or apartment building. So anyone who needed anything had a direct contact.