vikingTON Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 13 minutes ago, harry94 said: A bigger division doesn't eliminate the prospect of clubs panicked about dropping a division or chasing promotion. The gulf between the leagues would be greater (probably more in line with what we had pre the redistribution in the SPFL merger) which would again incentivise teams chasing to go up or stay down. The competition for promotion/relegation isn't necessarily going to include less teams. The full-time teams in Scotland outwith the Old Firm, Edinburgh and Aberdeen aren't really that drastically different in size, fans get into crowdwanks a lot but we all see Hamilton and Livingston competing with others, it's still conceivable that a 16 team league could have 6 or 7 clubs looking over their shoulder. I'm not really convinced those pressures to spend for promotion/safety are eliminated by it - I don't know how we could do that apart from just dumping all the part-time teams and doing a one tier set-up. I don't believe that they can ever be eliminated: they would however be alleviated significantly by having a slightly larger top flight as well as a substantially larger, 14 team second tier. That's what needs to happen if we're not going to see the second tier turn into a graveyard for professional football clubs in the near future: the standard of play has already died on its arse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 10 minutes ago, virginton said: UEFA is chiefly interested in keeping this season's CL on the road and getting the names of the European participants for next season from the domestic leagues within a reasonable timeframe. How the individual league bodies actually choose those participants, decide whether to award titles, promotion, relegation etc is really not really their concern and nobody should expect advice on that. Only if there are practical issues to be ironed out such as the contract issue do they come back into the equation. But it is essentially a top down system. If UEFA is setting aside time for leagues to finish and reshaping the calendar to get everything done for Euro 2021 then there is no point in Scotland taking a different direction and not finishing the season. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said: But it is essentially a top down system. If UEFA is setting aside time for leagues to finish and reshaping the calendar to get everything done for Euro 2021 then there is no point in Scotland taking a different direction and not finishing the season. No it isn't: the English Premier League for example seems hell-bent on playing every single fixture, while Serie A officials seem to have given up fulfilling their full league campaign weeks ago. The former might well choose to keep playing into August/September while Italy holds a play-off format that wraps things up in July instead and kicks off their new season as usual. Or Italy might void their league and allocate European places for next season. There's no evidence that UEFA is going to wade into that mess by telling domestic leagues what they should and shouldn't do, so long as the key points of keeping European tournaments and qualification for next season are met. Edited April 1, 2020 by vikingTON 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, ali_91 said: The notion that Scottish football clubs need to be playing dead rubbers in front of two men and a dog for the last few months of the season in order to improve is a bit of a stretch tbh. Not as much a stretch as the John Hughes-esque, 'we need aw cum-peh-tut-uv games' argument though. I've been watching a division where the teams bounce around from one play-off race to another on a weekly basis for years. It isn't 'exciting': it's pish. Because none of the teams are any good and the standard of play has markedly declined over the past decade to an alarming degree. I'd much rather see a football game in which teams are actually playing as tactically coherent units for a change instead of chucking in ten ringers in the summer and another six in January who then duke it out at an appallingly low standard until their teams finally 'gel', which is about four weeks before they get broken up again anyway. The fact that a merely half-decent Ross County team ran away with the second tier last season should tell you all you need to know about the standard of a division with so many 'competitive' (but dung) games. A slightly enlarged league does not mean that the season ends with a string of dead rubbers: not least when you can still use the play-off system to still give teams a (very small) chance) of winning promotion from the bottom half after the split. Quote The argument that less chance of relegation = less money spent is all well and good until a mid table championship club get promoted and then chuck a load of money at trying to stay in the top flight. A club like Morton for instance would be in much greater danger of being relegated from a 16 team top tier than a 10 team second tier. You misunderstand the world in which those sort of clubs operate. For them, bobbing periodically up and back down from second tier to the top flight would be a far better deal than what they've got right now. There's no compelling financial need for them to stay in the top flight - that's a Hearts, Dundee United level of delusion. Edited April 1, 2020 by vikingTON 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinner-to-Saint Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Coventry Saint said: I'm not even sure the 12-team setup works that well for some of those 12. The cliff edge of relegation is so potentially catastrophic for the perennial strugglers such as us, that we end up having to hedge our bets quite massively when it comes for forward planning, etc. We handed out a fair few two-year deals in the summer/January, the first time for a while we've done that: and it's still come pretty fucking close to backfiring. The smallest four clubs in the top flight face the same planning issues that you mention affect those in tier 2. Obviously Hearts have chucked themselves into the mix this season, but you can't rely on that sort of incompetence in a typical season. 100% agree with your post, but especially the bit in bold. Thing is: it's not about avoiding relegation. St Mirren would still struggle in a 14-team league and I'm comfortable with that. It's about not making relegation a fucking financial and footballing abyss. I'm not ITK, with respect to what happens behind the scenes at St. Mirren Park, but I have always wondered why we don't try to offer longer contracts but include a 'relegation clause', whereby pay is cut by 30% if the club is relegated? Surely it would incentivise staying up and improve stability for both the club and the individual players? The same is true of the reverse situation, i.e. Championship clubs could increase wages by 30% if they're promoted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CambieBud Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Happy to see an increased top league. But only if there is no add on of the bigot brother colts in the lower leagues 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinner-to-Saint Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 24 minutes ago, CambieBud said: Happy to see an increased top league. But only if there is no add on of the bigot brother colts in the lower leagues I completely agree! It would ruin Scottish football if that were to happen, and will bring nothing to the game. The colt games didn't even attract decent attendances. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Starko Rover Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 15 hours ago, Dons_1988 said: Rushing through some botched league reconstruction as a reaction to this crisis would definitely, definitely end well. If it’s not possible to finish the season then end it as it is, European places based on current standings, Celtic champions etc. Promotion/relegation is tough one, I’d be inclined to cancel it for this season and leave leagues as they are. You either call the leagues or null and void them, you don't pick and choose. If you're calling them to give European places then you 'd have to give promotion and relegation to the clubs in those positions otherwise you're recognising Aberdeen finishing 3rd and rewarding them with a Euro place for it but failing to reward Dundee Utd with promotion for winning their league. If we can't finish it's either all leagues are Null and Void or all leagues are settled with current standings or average PPG. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 11 hours ago, virginton said: I don't believe that they can ever be eliminated: they would however be alleviated significantly by having a slightly larger top flight as well as a substantially larger, 14 team second tier. That's what needs to happen if we're not going to see the second tier turn into a graveyard for professional football clubs in the near future: the standard of play has already died on its arse. I agree with much of this and have said similar previously. How many more Clubs in addition to the existing 22 full timers could potentially be supported by a 14 team tier 1&2 though? Ideally we want to encourage more Clubs going full time but how many are realistic and would this happening recreate the "falling into the abyss" scenario we currently have? Potential FT Clubs: Airdrie? Clyde? Dumbarton? Arbroath? Cove? Stirling? Alloa? I think some of these could be a stretch for going FT tbh. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dons_1988 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 3 hours ago, San Starko Rover said: You either call the leagues or null and void them, you don't pick and choose. If you're calling them to give European places then you 'd have to give promotion and relegation to the clubs in those positions otherwise you're recognising Aberdeen finishing 3rd and rewarding them with a Euro place for it but failing to reward Dundee Utd with promotion for winning their league. If we can't finish it's either all leagues are Null and Void or all leagues are settled with current standings or average PPG. Depending on what Uefa do we'll probably have to allocate European places at some point, so how else would you do it? Dundee United didn't win the league and Hearts didn't finish bottom (unfortunately). I wouldn't be averse to null and void and not awarding any titles, but European spots will need to be decided. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 24 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said: Depending on what Uefa do we'll probably have to allocate European places at some point, so how else would you do it? Dundee United didn't win the league and Hearts didn't finish bottom (unfortunately). I wouldn't be averse to null and void and not awarding any titles, but European spots will need to be decided. Brechin and Stranraer are the big winners there. Voiding the league punishes the successful sides and rewards the shite sides. I dont see that as a good outcome. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dons_1988 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: Brechin and Stranraer are the big winners there. Voiding the league punishes the successful sides and rewards the shite sides. I dont see that as a good outcome. My order of preference is (on a footballing perspective): - Finish the season (next to no chance given the uncertainty over timing) - Call it as it is - null and void Presuming UEFA will require nominations for next season's competitions, then if it's not option 1 you need to allocate those out somehow. Promotion/relegation is an absolute minefield to be honest and god knows what the right answer is. There's strong arguments both ways. A temporary league reconstruction may be the answer. I'm not against league construction in theory, I just think rushing anything permanent as a reaction to this crisis would be madness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 3 hours ago, sjc said: I agree with much of this and have said similar previously. How many more Clubs in addition to the existing 22 full timers could potentially be supported by a 14 team tier 1&2 though? Ideally we want to encourage more Clubs going full time but how many are realistic and would this happening recreate the "falling into the abyss" scenario we currently have? Potential FT Clubs: Airdrie? Clyde? Dumbarton? Arbroath? Cove? Stirling? Alloa? I think some of these could be a stretch for going FT tbh. Why do we want more full time clubs? It's not sustainable so would be very stupid for the ones mentioned to try. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 UEFA are being very clear that their preference is to finish the season, and they've already suggested informally that it could go on until at least August, though they didn't put a date on it.Therefore, the cut off date for deciding European places is probably still 4/5 months away at least. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 13 minutes ago, DA Baracus said: Why do we want more full time clubs? It's not sustainable so would be very stupid for the ones mentioned to try. Aye, somenof those clubs struggle as it is. Cant buy into this belief bigger divisions would somehow improve the quality either, are perennial nothing clubs like Morton and Dunfermline actually going to play better football? Or will they simply be getting promoted as the level required to get promoted has dropped to mid-table Championship. Absolute NAP youd still get moron sides like the two Dundee clubs still racking up millions of pounds worth of losses every season anyway, theyd just knock it up a level. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 Brechin and Stranraer are the big winners there. Voiding the league punishes the successful sides and rewards the shite sides. I dont see that as a good outcome. It’s not a good outcome But there isn’t going to be a “good” outcome The whole issue is about finding the least bad outcome 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 11 minutes ago, DA Baracus said: Why do we want more full time clubs? It's not sustainable so would be very stupid for the ones mentioned to try. I think having more financially feasible full time Clubs should be aspired too as it would bring about having more full time coaches and players, thus deepening the talent pool which can only be a good thing imo. This alongside a root and branch revamp of our coaching/youth development of course. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munoz Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/18352282.tony-fitzpatrick-season-get-planning-better-future-scottish-football/ -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weetoonlad Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/18352282.tony-fitzpatrick-season-get-planning-better-future-scottish-football/The season is over Nil and Void next season 14 16 16 16 it needs change simple . if the top flight doesn't want to change f**k them all other clubs should vote it in . Simple Sent from my Samsung gold s10 -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derry Alli Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 The strangest thing is he's repeatedly writing "nil and void". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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