League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[bluearmyfaction]

10 hours ago, JimmyMirren said:

I’d be interested to see how BT Sport and the Beeb would try to enforce such a claim.

Taking it out of payments not yet made.  Clubs get tv money a month in arrears.  This smacks of a story leaked for a purpose; it's not clear whether the £3m is a repayment or the amount yet to go out.

[Dunning1874]

9 hours ago, Pet Jeden said:

Why couldn’t there be the agreed number of games in 20/21 if it started in Sept? Why would starting a month or so later cause SKY to wriggle, in your opinion?

Staggie52 and RandomGuy have already covered this, but there is absolutely no chance the 20/21 season would be starting in September if we'd decided to play the rest of 19/20 first. You know this.

2 hours ago, JTS98 said:

It's your view that unfairness doesn't make an argument for reconstruction compelling. I disagree with you. So does Tom English. I think it's fundamentally wrong to leave a small number of clubs carrying the can while the others, as English says, pull the ladder up and say 'I'm alright, Jack'. I think that's wrong.

Months into this and you still haven't grasped that the Premiership doesn't exist in a vacuum and reconstruction simply changes which clubs would carry the can on the basis of an incomplete season.

14-10-10-10 is certainly considerably less unfair than 14-14-14 in that regard, but the point stands that you can't reconstruct your way out of unfairness without a 44 team league and if someone unavoidably has to suffer unfairness, there's no justification for it being anyone other than the worst team in each division over the games which could be played.

In supporting reconstruction you were advocating exactly what you claim is fundamentally wrong here - you want a solution that wouldn't be unfair to your club while not caring that it would be unfair to others. A position where they can say "I'm alright Jack" and to hell with other clubs is exactly what Hearts and Partick have been advocating from day one.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Dunning1874

[BFTD]

4 minutes ago, Golden Gordon said:

Just catching up, may have missed this. 

Not a dry eye in the house when they first unveiled it. Inspiring.

 

[Stag Nation]

39 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Wonder when the SFA will stop fannying about and apply the rule book.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5648689/hearts-sfa-membership-revoked-court/

They've probably been advised that courts will take a very dim view of the rule in question, which effectively challenges their jurisdiction.

[Grangemouth Bairn]

35 minutes ago, Bazil85 said:

I agree but the merit is only for Celtic and Rangers, it isn't going to produce a bunch of players far better than what we have available in the current Scotland squad and that's what we need. We need players that are better by some distance than the general standard of Celtic and them having a colt team won't produce that, it may provide a few homegrown quality players to save them in the transfer market but they aren't going to develop in mass players better than Eduard, Brown, Rogic, etc which is the level we need to be producing. Tierney has developed to a very decent standard playing from a young age against much better opponents than L2, it further cements that generally better players need a higher level. 

And the difference the last three years has been incomparable. Robertson only played for QP for one season, he isn't a basis for colt teams working, he's very much an exception and a player that fell down lower than he needed to. Also who's to say playing with seasoned pros also didn't contribute to his development at that stage? That's not something the Colts will get. 

It gets to the stage where with everyone needing to improve at international level it must be something else & that is collectively we don't have a strong enough team at international level. We need Robertson, McTominey, Fletcher to be the standard not the exceptions. Christie and Forrest are no where near good enough for where we need Scotland to be (either are most of the English league players that get in the squad), that shows in the level Celtic operate at club level. Lazio is flash in the pan stuff, if we want to look at European results in isolation, fine but it makes much more sense to look at Celtic as a collective in Europe over the last few years. At best a make up the numbers team in the CL, at worst a last 32 team in the lessor European tournament, not good enough for where we want to be. 

My gripe with Project Brave is the near complete lack of communication. We're going on three years without an official SFA led communication. I know it's a long-term fix but there's no excuse not to update your major stakeholders (fans) 

Anyway, I know that went on a bit, I'm just glad once again Colts are in the bin, for all the above reasons I hope they remain in there and we don't need to have this debate in another couple years. The positive for me is Doncaster seen fit to have a vote on a proposal with less than 40% backing but not the colts. That tells me the general appetite for Colts has to be a fair bit below 40% hopefully Celtic and Rangers take this on with any future Scottish youth development projects and don't include a plan that's always going to be doomed to failure. 

I’m hoping that when he said Robertson and McGregor had something in common he meant solely their age ?

Because from a career trajectory and improvement point of view, over the last 3 years Robertson is light years ahead of McGregor.

[Guest JTS98]

7 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Staggie92 and RandomGuy have already covered this, but there is absolutely no chance the 20/21 season would be starting in September if we'd decided to play the rest of 19/20 first. You know this.

Months into this and 1) you still haven't grasped that the Premiership doesn't exist in a vacuum and reconstruction simply changes which clubs would carry the can on the basis of an incomplete season.

14-10-10-10 is certainly considerably less unfair than 14-14-14 in that regard, but the point stands that you can't reconstruct your way out of unfairness without a 44 team league and if someone unavoidably has to suffer unfairness, 2) there's no justification for it being anyone other than the worst team in each division over the games which could be played.

3) In supporting reconstruction you were advocating exactly what you claim is fundamentally wrong here - you want a solution that wouldn't be unfair to your club while not caring that it would be unfair to others. A position where they can say "I'm alright Jack" and to hell with other clubs is exactly what Hearts and Partick have been advocating from day one.

I'm afraid all three of these points are off the mark.

1) Of course I have. My point has always been that the clubs should share the burden around so that we all suffer a bit rather than making a small number of clubs carry the can. Maybe you disagree with that, but that's been my, and many others', position for a long time.

2) That's a philosophically weak point indeed. Clubs have had different fixtures from one another, clubs have had matches recontextualised after they finished. Being in a certain position with more than 20% of the season to go does not mean these clubs should carry the can while everyone else shrugs their shoulders. You know that and if a different side was bottom, I imagine you'd be arguing that very point.

3) No, and I'll reiterate point 1 for you here. I've said that the burden should be shared. It's very simple. Hearts had not been relegated, and imposing that is an injustice. It's far more fair to say we're going to cope with this by reshuffling things a bit so that we all take a manageable hit. That's a simple point, and, again, one I'm sure you'd make with a different league table.

Edited June 17, 2020 by JTS98

[Staggie52]

5 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

I'd be amazed if the emergency powers used were not time limited. There's the law, there's government advice and there's NHS advice. Only the first of these 3 is actually enforceable (hence the Dominic Cummings fiasco)

The time limit was the requirement to have a formal review every 3 weeks. Please don’t be obtuse, the SPFL could not in any circumstances take steps that were contrary to Scottish Government advice, even if they tried to the clubs and players would rightly have refused. You might have to grudgingly accept that football before 1st August has never been a viable option.

[GordonD]

On 16/06/2020 at 09:28, Pet Jeden said:

And for that very same reason I would like us to change our national anthem from one that drones about 14th century battles!

Anyone suggested Sunshine on Leith yet?

[Dons_1988]

3 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I'm afraid all three of these points are off the mark.

1) Of course I have. My point has always been that the clubs should share the burden around so that we all suffer a bit rather than making a small number of clubs carry the can. Maybe you disagree with that, but that's been my, and many others', position for a long time.

2) That's a philosophically weak point indeed. Clubs have had different fixtures from one another, clubs have had matches recontextualised after they finished. Being in a certain position with more than 20% of the season to go does not mean these clubs should carry the can while everyone else shrugs their shoulders. You know that and if a different side was bottom, I imagine you'd be arguing that very point.

3) No, and I'll reiterate point 1 for you here. I've said that the burden should be shared. It's very simple. Hearts had not been relegated, and imposing that is an injustice. It's far more fair to say we're going to cope with this by reshuffling things a bit so that we all take a manageable hit. That's a simple point, and, again, one I'm sure you'd make with a different league table.

This 'you'd all think differently if it wasn't Hearts' approach you're taking here is both arrogant and patronising. 

Hearts aren't all that, m9.

[Pet Jeden]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Wonder when the SFA will stop fannying about and apply the rule book.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5648689/hearts-sfa-membership-revoked-court/

They’ll do it the minute they really want to have it confirmed which law prevails - the law of the state or the law of a sporting body. 

Whenever you’re ready Mr Petrie...

[welshbairn]

22 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

They've probably been advised that courts will take a very dim view of the rule in question, which effectively challenges their jurisdiction.

I think it's quite common to have clauses in contracts saying that disputes should be resolved by arbitration. Trade treaties for example.

Edited June 17, 2020 by welshbairn

[Pet Jeden]

51 minutes ago, Insaintee said:

I honestly don't think we would. If we'd be by a mile the worst team in the division and stinking up the league all season. If we'd pished millions up against the wall. I think would have accepted that we go down and wouldn't try and use a glabal pandemic as an excuse. Also we would not be banging on about how the top division needs us and without us all the other clubs would loose money. Nor would we expect a temporary fix just keep us up. We wouldn't expect 42 clubs to vote against their best interests just to improver ours. We wouldn't waste money and time on "court cases" with no hope of sucess and we wouldn't be sucking of Tom English just for a few fluff pieces. 

Nah don't think we would.

Your ex-player, now lawyer, doesn’t agree.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/david-winnie-is-fearful-of-lasting-damage-as-relegated-pair-go-to-court-z0rkv5w2d

David Winnie, a Scottish Cup winner with St Mirren who also turned out for Aberdeen, Hearts and Dundee, knows the game but his legal eye sets him apart as member clubs prepare to take action against Scottish football.

Winnie, the head of sports law at Mayfair-based Charles Douglas Solicitors LLP, believes that the process of bringing Scottish football grinding to a halt may have already begun. The 53-year-old also warned that Hearts and Partick Thistle going down the judicial route could do irreparable damage to the Scottish game, both financially and by fomenting resentment which will take years to dissipate.

“When you look at sums of £6-7 million being bandied about as the cost to Hearts of not being in the top tier this season, I don’t think they had any other option but to do this,” he said.

“The cost of taking this action will be outweighed by the financial cost of demotion so, from their perspective, they have nothing to lose and everything to gain in that regard. The way things have gone with reconstruction, this was always likely to end up in court.

“Hearts have two causes of action contractually. Regarding membership of the SPFL, it’s an agreement between the clubs and the body itself and the clubs are party to a contract with the SPFL and each other.

“If the SPFL, by omission or by failing to follow its own corporate framework in passing a written resolution, will be in breach of that contract. You need to take it back to the issue of Dundee’s ‘missing’ vote.

“As far as I can see, the original ‘no’ vote from Dundee [which opposed ending the season] should have stood. Their secretary, Eric Drysdale, confirmed that the vote had been sent and that it had been received: it wasn’t a bounce back.

“In company law, there is no obligation on any member to cast a negative vote. Generally, members will vote in favour of a resolution and, if they don’t reply, they’re not in favour.

“However, what had been invited in terms of this resolution was a submission by clubs as to whether they were for or against the motion to end the season. When Dundee voted no, that should have stood.

“I also think there was also a lack of information provided to the members on which to base their decisions, specifically the fact that money would need to be repaid to Sky for unfulfilled fixtures. You could argue as to whether or not that information was material but the financial implications for Hearts are catastrophic.”

Season 2020-21 will be the most compressed in the game’s history, with competitions being carried over from last season due to the Covid-19 crisis at one end and an early close to accommodate the displaced Euro 2020 finals at the other, and Winnie anticipates that state of affairs worsening.

“If I was advising Hearts, I would seek an interim interdict on the Premiership season starting, on the grounds that they should be involved in it. In fact, given that they announced their intention to take the SPFL to court immediately after their reconstruction plan was voted down on Monday, I suspect that they have already done so.

“That would provide the SPFL with a logistical nightmare when it comes to delivering a fixture list. Ideally, this case will be fast-tracked at the Court of Session — the window is narrowing so the ruling must be expedited. If not, it may drag on for months and, if the ruling is in Hearts’ favour, then the Premiership would need to be restarted with them in it, which could lead to chaos and more contractual trouble with the broadcasters.

“I would also seek compensation for being relegated when there was a mathematical possibility that Hearts could have survived. Even if that amounted to only half of their projected losses for next season, that is money that would be paid for by the other members.

“Factor in Partick Thistle’s parachute payment and you could be looking at the other 40 clubs each losing around £100,000. Celtic are the only ones who can afford that — this action has the potential to decimate Scottish football.

“The game isn’t meant to be played out in court and the judge shouldn’t be the referee. However this ends, no one will be happy and there will be a whole host of ill will directed at Hearts and Thistle.

“I have sympathy for the SPFL board, who were attempting to deal with a situation which was truly unprecedented. They have admitted to making mistakes but those procedural errors will provide Hearts with ammunition. It will still be difficult for them to succeed and, ultimately, there will be no winners.”

[welshbairn]

15 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

matches recontextualised

FFS.  It's not fair, if we'd known that a pandemic would shorten the season we'd have tried a bit harder earlier on.

[Dons_1988]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

FFS.  It's not fair, if we'd known that a pandemic would shorten the season we'd have tried a bit harder earlier on.

This is slander.

[Pet Jeden]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I think it's quite common to have clauses in contracts saying that disputes should be resolved by arbitration. Trade treaties for example.

That’s because trade treaties are between competing and roughly equivalent jurisdictions. Scottish Law and UK law v SFA (not SPFL) and UEFA is a walkover

[Guest JTS98]

22 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

This 'you'd all think differently if it wasn't Hearts' approach you're taking here is both arrogant and patronising. 

Hearts aren't all that, m9.

I think you just need to read this thread to see that Hearts' status is certainly a source of joy for some. Aberdeen would get the same treatment.

It's not really a surprise. People enjoy big clubs struggling. Nobody is pretending we're Real Madrid.

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

That’s because trade treaties are between competing and roughly equivalent jurisdictions. Scottish Law and UK law v SFA (not SPFL) and UEFA is a walkover

If Scottish clubs want to take part in UEFA competitions the SFA have to abide by its rules. FIFA are also strict about these matters.

[Dons_1988]

6 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I think you just need to read this thread to see that Hearts' status is certainly a source of joy for some. Aberdeen would get the same treatment.

It's not really a surprise. People enjoy big clubs struggling. Nobody is pretending we're Real Madrid.

People are enjoying it, yes. Doesn't make their arguments less credible.

You responded to some fair points just saying you wouldn't think this if it was another team.

[Guest JTS98]

3 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

People are enjoying it, yes. Doesn't make their arguments less credible.

You responded to some fair points just saying you wouldn't think this if it was another team.

Like I said before. We've all got our biases. I don't think they're good points.

[Insaintee]

This goes down as the biggest heids gone thread in P&B history.