Jacksgranda Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 7 minutes ago, Ric said: Oh, I agree, but I've said all along that if it goes to arbitration, rather than in a court case, that it's the best chance of getting money. You see, I just feel arbitration will take the view that Hearts actually have a valid argument, when legally it could easily be ruled against. From that point on it's just taking the view of how much weight their argument has. We'll need to wait and see though. I'd say it's a snowball's chance in hell of them reversing their relegation though. This. They'll get compo on top of their parachute payment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Positive, sometimes. Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Ric said: Oh, I agree, but I've said all along that if it goes to arbitration, rather than in a court case, that it's the best chance of getting money. You see, I just feel arbitration will take the view that Hearts actually have a valid argument, when legally it could easily be ruled against. From that point on it's just taking the view of how much weight their argument has. We'll need to wait and see though. I'd say it's a snowball's chance in hell of them reversing their relegation though. I've always thought it didn't matter court v arbitration but I know nothing about legal matters. Always though it'll be the "evidence" that matters. Even if the conspiracy theories of Doncaster and Lawwell were somehow involved it's not like they're going to be stupid enough to have an obvious trail of emails or texts to implicate themselves. Again there might be more to it than we know but it just seems like Hearts and co are speculating that it looks like something dodgy has gone on without much hard fact there actually was? So it comes down to have the SPFL followed the rules or have they not? Relegation being overturned. I don't see it either. We could well be proved wrong though but... Can't see it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Mr Positive, sometimes. said: I've always thought it didn't matter court v arbitration but I know nothing about legal matters. Always though it'll be the "evidence" that matters. Even if the conspiracy theories of Doncaster and Lawwell were somehow involved it's not like they're going to be stupid enough to have an obvious trail of emails or texts to implicate themselves. Again there might be more to it than we know but it just seems like Hearts and co are speculating that it looks like something dodgy has gone on without much hard fact there actually was? So it comes down to have the SPFL followed the rules or have they not? Relegation being overturned. I don't see it either. We could well be proved wrong though but... Can't see it. We've not seen the arguments being made, if it is a narrow legal point you'd be right, if it's a more generalised "we've been treated unfairly here are our broad concerns" then I believe the arbitration panel have more leeway in deciding than the courts do. I could be wrong here, but I've always felt the arbitration panel was for arbitrating not adjudicating. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Has there been any update at all on what's happening with this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillin Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Reading that few pages on Kickback is incredible. From "I've heard we've agreed £5m" to "if they're offering £5m we must have a strong case so tell them to poke it" to calculating how much each club would end up losing. Intermixed with "interdict" and "go nuclear" like they've got any sort of power to bring down the whole of Scottish football. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillin Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Romeo said: Has there been any update at all on what's happening with this? STV reporting a procedural hearing was held today with it starting proper on Monday. Expected to last at least 2 days. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aim Here Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Ric said: We've not seen the arguments being made, if it is a narrow legal point you'd be right, if it's a more generalised "we've been treated unfairly here are our broad concerns" then I believe the arbitration panel have more leeway in deciding than the courts do. I could be wrong here, but I've always felt the arbitration panel was for arbitrating not adjudicating. Arbitrate and adjudicate are both synonyms for 'judge'. A lot of people of a certain age seem to think arbitration is the same as mediation (probably from all those Trade Union disputes ACAS got involved with in the seventies,. where it was the the 'C' in ACAS was the reference to mediation, not that second 'A') 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannadeechee Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 19 minutes ago, Ric said: Oh, I agree, but I've said all along that if it goes to arbitration, rather than in a court case, that it's the best chance of getting money. You see, I just feel arbitration will take the view that Hearts actually have a valid argument, when legally it could easily be ruled against. From that point on it's just taking the view of how much weight their argument has. We'll need to wait and see though. I'd say it's a snowball's chance in hell of them reversing their relegation though. The problem is though, of the SPFL have not broken any of their rules, the vote falls with the Companies Act (2006) then Hearts & Thistle have no case. Lord Clark was quite clear. Arbitration Act is quite clear, happy to be correct by legal minds with greater knowledge, but from what I could understand of the arbitration panel do not find any legal wrong doing them "moral" doesn't come into it. There would have to be an error in the calling of leagues, an error in the process of the votes ("reject" option may be such an error) for there to be anything going to the complainers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: This. They'll get compo on top of their parachute payment. Fingers crossed any compensation settlement is less than their £500,000 SFA fine. That would just be the cherry on the icing on the cake. Budge's Last Stand being yet another humiliating defeat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Reading that few pages on Kickback is incredible. From "I've heard we've agreed £5m" to "if they're offering £5m we must have a strong case so tell them to poke it" to calculating how much each club would end up losing. Intermixed with "interdict" and "go nuclear" like they've got any sort of power to bring down the whole of Scottish football.HKB is just an utter clown collective. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, Aim Here said: Arbitrate and adjudicate are both synonyms for 'judge'. A lot of people of a certain age seem to think arbitration is the same as mediation (probably from all those Trade Union disputes ACAS got involved with in the seventies,. where it was the the 'C' in ACAS was the reference to mediation, not that second 'A') Synonyms, yes, but they are not the same thing. I'm not confusing it with mediation. Although to a certain extent it is because there has to be some level of unanimity in the decision taken, so all party representatives (not all parties themselves) have to agree to an extent. I do not believe the arbitration panel's job is to make a narrow ruling as the CoS would have done. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 15 minutes ago, Tannadeechee said: The problem is though, of the SPFL have not broken any of their rules, the vote falls with the Companies Act (2006) then Hearts & Thistle have no case. Lord Clark was quite clear. Arbitration Act is quite clear, happy to be correct by legal minds with greater knowledge, but from what I could understand of the arbitration panel do not find any legal wrong doing them "moral" doesn't come into it. There would have to be an error in the calling of leagues, an error in the process of the votes ("reject" option may be such an error) for there to be anything going to the complainers. Again, we just don't have the case being put forward. It may be the exact same as before hand, but I'm guessing as there has been some delay it's not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Gordon Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Just now, DeeTillEhDeh said: 17 minutes ago, Fillin said: Reading that few pages on Kickback is incredible. From "I've heard we've agreed £5m" to "if they're offering £5m we must have a strong case so tell them to poke it" to calculating how much each club would end up losing. Intermixed with "interdict" and "go nuclear" like they've got any sort of power to bring down the whole of Scottish football. HKB is just an utter clown collective. Surely not, that sounds like a fun, happy & gentle place, much like the end of Patch Adams. They probably do all need some form of medical intervention though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Golden Gordon said: Surely not, that sounds like a fun, happy & gentle place, much like the end of Patch Adams. They probably do all need some form of medical intervention though. You've used the word "fun" in combination with a Robin Williams film. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Gordon Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 46 minutes ago, Ric said: Oh, I agree, but I've said all along that if it goes to arbitration, rather than in a court case, that it's the best chance of getting money. You see, I just feel arbitration will take the view that Hearts actually have a valid argument, when legally it could easily be ruled against. From that point on it's just taking the view of how much weight their argument has. We'll need to wait and see though. I'd say it's a snowball's chance in hell of them reversing their relegation though. 2 minutes ago, Ric said: You've used the word "fun" in combination with a Robin Williams film. You've used the words 'valid argument' in combination with Hearts. I think we might be even. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 5 minutes ago, Golden Gordon said: I think we might be even. Touché, although that wasn't my opinion I was projecting it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Onion Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 53 minutes ago, Phillips455 said: Premature celebration from the hearts fans there. Believing they have be award £5 million before arbitration starts is the exact same attitude that got them here in the first place. Exactly, they were already celebrating winning the remaining games of the season and staying up under their own steam. Also they are celebrating that all the compensation money to be paid to them that will bankrupt loads of clubs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 18 minutes ago, Spring Onion said: Exactly, they were already celebrating winning the remaining games of the season and staying up under their own steam. Also they are celebrating that all the compensation money to be paid to them that will bankrupt loads of clubs. Read that on JKB - they're convinced they're going to get millions and bankrupt Scottish football and are quite happy about it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 40 minutes ago, Ric said: Again, we just don't have the case being put forward. It may be the exact same as before hand, but I'm guessing as there has been some delay it's not. The delay is most likely down to the SPFL gathering the necessary documents and also the process of actually appointing the panel. I can't see why the actual argument would be hugely different - the SPFL rules haven't changed in the last two weeks, nor have the events that actually took place from March to May. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aim Here Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, craigkillie said: The delay is most likely down to the SPFL gathering the necessary documents and also the process of actually appointing the panel. I can't see why the actual argument would be hugely different - the SPFL rules haven't changed in the last two weeks, nor have the events that actually took place from March to May. The court didn't get around to looking at the merits of the arguments either in terms of law or factual evidence (except insofar as it related to the motions to lump this onto the SFA arbiters) so all that would have to be done by the arbitration panel more or less from scratch, regardless of whether it's different or the same as what was put before the CoS. Edited July 17, 2020 by Aim Here 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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