Pull My Strings Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 47 minutes ago, Tannadeechee said: This^^^^^^ annoys the hell out of me. For example, Livingston played League 1 then Championship, then premiership in consecutive seasons. They are now in their 3rd season in the Premiership. The squad that played in the 1st season in the top league was mostly the same squad that played League 1. They still have players playing regularly that prior to Livi played lower lower league. Our current squad has 6 players with previous Premiership experience. 2 players have captained Premiership teams previously. 3 players have previous top league experience in other leagues. 3 players have international caps. 11 have represented their country at U20/21 level. The majority were signed while we were in the Championship on Premiership wages. I would expect a Championship squad to cost a lot less. Now I'm not saying they are world beaters, cup semi finalist level squads BUT for the money spent on wages for each player, we should be expecting players of that alleged worth and experience to be able to pass a ball to a team mate, show desire to win, not require an age to make a decision, have a first touch that bounces 4-5 yards in front of them. I would also expect decent-ish decision making, an ability to compete, not continually make rookie defensive mistakes, move into space now and again, not be brushed off the ball with ease, hit a cross/corner/freekick regularly better than an U-12s team AND take to the pitch trying to win. That's just the basics I expect that team to be able to do. All this "woe is us, we're only a Championship squad" would wash if the team wasn't built on Premiership money to be a Premiership team. All it does is help absolve those involved in the piss poor performances this season since Mellon got spooked, shat himself and went all out to try and not lose, by giving them an excuse for their underperforming. This is the pertinent point for me - we started the season with a pleasingly dynamic approach, which got results and was good to watch. He chucked it entirely after the Kilmarnock defeat (which was a bit of an aberration - there were never four goals between the teams) and since then the most you could say about the team is that they were sometimes hard to beat. Mellon feels like a guy who has lost his way with this team. To tighten up the defence he's added more defenders to the team and then - as some blunt attempt at counterbalancing that move - he's added loads of forwards as if that's all a team needs: more defenders = less goals conceded; more forwards = more goals. We essentially went 4-1-5 last night at half time in terms of personnel. No wonder there's no balance, no control, no discernible plan other than boot it clear and hope one of the forwards can kick it in the goal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinkle Posted January 28, 2021 Author Share Posted January 28, 2021 3 hours ago, arab_joe said: We are 6th in the league Thats a poor take on things. To be fair though, i think we have been unlucky being the only team in world football thats been affected with this pandemic. Its not as if we signed Edwards for a fee, Bolton on loan with a big wage contribution, McNulty on loan with a big wage contribution and the Cameroon international Jeando Fuchs. But apart from them we havent signed anyone and Mellon has had his hands tied.... Add those to one of the biggest wage bills outwith the Old Firm and you can see that its been really, really tough for him 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven W Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 To repeat a point I made in the Utd v St.Mirren thread... The last two home games have really brought it home to me the gaping chasm in talent between the Championship and the Premiership. Two, what you might call 'middle-of-the-road', bang average, Premier League teams have been far superior to us on our own pitch for the majority of 180 minutes. I must say I've been surprised at the gulf between the two divisions - I didn't think it would be quite so vast. That said we have little option other than to persist with what, by and large, was last season's Championship team, and although he's in no way free from blame for some our own failings, credit is due to MM for our current league position. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arab_joe Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Tannadeechee said: Our current squad has 6 players with previous Premiership experience. 2 players have captained Premiership teams previously. 3 players have previous top league experience in other leagues. 3 players have international caps. 11 have represented their country at U20/21 level. The majority were signed while we were in the Championship on Premiership wages. I would expect a Championship squad to cost a lot less. This is all completely irrelevant - they may all have great pedigree (Deniz used to play for Arsenal...), but they aren't Premiership level players right now. Are you telling me that Mark Reynolds or Peter Pawlett would get in any other Premiership team!? And nobody is suggesting that our wage bill is Championship level - quite the opposite. As our friends across the road like to remind us, we have a wage bill of over 4 million - we are paying top-end Premiership wages. My point was that this is not Micky Mellon's fault - it is the fault of the previous manager, the Chairman, Tony Asghar etc. that are agreeing to these crazy contracts - and that, in fact, Mellon is doing relatively well with what he has at his disposal. 45 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said: I think the loss of the much maligned Butcher and Fuchs has been huge for us. The amount of times we lose the ball or an attack breaks down and the opposition just stroll through our midfield exemplifies this. It simply wouldn’t happen to the same extent with either or both in there. Fuchs is definitely a big miss, but in my eyes Callum Butcher is out of his depth in the top tier. He's too slow, too cumbersome and not good enough on the ball at this level. 35 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said: Daft amounts were paid in wages, probably through desperation, to get players in for Neilson's failed promotion attempt two years ago. Mellon is playing under these constraints now, over and above the uncertainty before the season started as to which division we'd be in. This. We can hardly blame the guy who has been in charge for 6 months and only been able to bring in 4 first-team players, for the fact that we are stuck with rubbish that Neilson and Asghar signed and who were barely able to win the Championship. 21 minutes ago, ArabianKnight said: I'm not entirely happy with the way things are going on the pitch but I don't think Mellon is a terrible manager. I'm in this camp, too. Give Mellon a year, at least. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior_Arab Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 10 minutes ago, arab_joe said: I'm in this camp, too. Give Mellon a year, at least. I’ve generally been an advocate of Mellon’s, whilst some of my more rabid friends have been calling for his head for weeks. I still think that, on the whole he’s done a decent job. But last night is a hell of a black mark against him. We need to see a reaction - another couple of defeats in the coming weeks and we will get dragged into a relegation fight. And if that happens, we’ll be the ones with no confidence or momentum (other than downwards). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pull My Strings Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 21 minutes ago, Steven W said: To repeat a point I made in the Utd v St.Mirren thread... The last two home games have really brought it home to me the gaping chasm in talent between the Championship and the Premiership. Two, what you might call 'middle-of-the-road', bang average, Premier League teams have been far superior to us on our own pitch for the majority of 180 minutes. I must say I've been surprised at the gulf between the two divisions - I didn't think it would be quite so vast. That said we have little option other than to persist with what, by and large, was last season's Championship team, and although he's in no way free from blame for some our own failings, credit is due to MM for our current league position. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Nah. I'm not having that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven W Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Just now, Pull My Strings said: Nah. I'm not having that. Sorry. Didn't realise you knew best. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannadeechee Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 1 hour ago, arab_joe said: This is all completely irrelevant - they may all have great pedigree (Deniz used to play for Arsenal...), but they aren't Premiership level players right now. Are you telling me that Mark Reynolds or Peter Pawlett would get in any other Premiership team!? And nobody is suggesting that our wage bill is Championship level - quite the opposite. As our friends across the road like to remind us, we have a wage bill of over 4 million - we are paying top-end Premiership wages. My point was that this is not Micky Mellon's fault - it is the fault of the previous manager, the Chairman, Tony Asghar etc. that are agreeing to these crazy contracts - and that, in fact, Mellon is doing relatively well with what he has at his disposal. Fuchs is definitely a big miss, but in my eyes Callum Butcher is out of his depth in the top tier. He's too slow, too cumbersome and not good enough on the ball at this level. This. We can hardly blame the guy who has been in charge for 6 months and only been able to bring in 4 first-team players, for the fact that we are stuck with rubbish that Neilson and Asghar signed and who were barely able to win the Championship. I'm in this camp, too. Give Mellon a year, at least. No it isn't. Just for the record Deniz and similar were not used in my example. It is ENTIRELY relevant. We have livi using some players with NO Premiership experience as an example. These have come from lower leagues and even juniors. They brought them to the club on a pittance, paying low wages. These are players our know it all, reactionary fans would have had a heads gone moment if we had signed. YET these guys are showing desire, ability and a will to win, greater than the sum of their parts collective that we would kill for at the moment. Now this has been with 2 different managers (not counting Kenny Millar). We have signed players from Premiership teams, with Premiership experience, have international caps, have captianed Premiership teams on Premiership money. That even though they have great experience STILL don't seem to know how to position themselves, make a run, mark properly and know that it is nigh on impossible to pass to a player tightly marked by 3 opponents. These players turned up in the Championship thinking it was easy and not being at 100%. Doing that means it is difficult to get up to "full speed" if required. It was as clear as day. We are suffering for it now. If you are getting players with Premiership experience and on previous play that we are happy to see signed, does that not show that we have seen these players perform at that level and are happy at the performances they have shown they are capable of? A big fanfare was made of the "quality" & experience of these players and most of us were happy and excited of sorts too see these players play for us. What has happened? A player with over 150 games for us spent the whole time sending easy passes direct to opposition player's feet. That's not Championship level, that's just fucking shit! We have a central defender with over 529 appearances, 490 in the Premiership, showing nothing learned by his experience in defending set pieces??? That's just an example, you don't get to play that regularly at that level if you are shit. May not be the best or quickest, but if you demand that level of salary earn it, show your experience, show your desire. I watch our games and do not see a side that will win. Yes there may be some good bits but they are few and far between. You watch other games.and you can't guarantee who will win. We are meek, submissive, ponderous, slow in decision making and unlike the likes of Livi are less than the sum of our parts. We look lifeless, disinterested and going through the motions. Last night has been coming for weeks. As much as our manager has panicked and filled his breeks, I want to see these players show professional pride, a bit of balls and determination as they are within themselves at the moment, and I want the manager to stop crapping his pants at facing a team below him, put a better balanced team out, and try and win a game. If you have Premiership experience, international caps, earning (demanding) Premiership money I expect it to be shown and not having sub standard, below ability performances excused with "we are a Championship side we are doing well considering" pish. It really annoys me as much as the "we're a Premiership side", "get back where we belong" pish of the last few seasons. If your in the Championship your a Championship side end of. We are in the Premiership we are a Premiership side, the highest level of football Scotland offers, the squad need to learn that, and if you excuse the expressions, man up, grow a set, stop looking for meely mouthed excuses and to shit or get off the pot. The last wee while has NOT been acceptable. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 21 minutes ago, Tannadeechee said: No it isn't. Just for the record Deniz and similar were not used in my example. It is ENTIRELY relevant. We have livi using some players with NO Premiership experience as an example. These have come from lower leagues and even juniors. They brought them to the club on a pittance, paying low wages. These are players our know it all, reactionary fans would have had a heads gone moment if we had signed. YET these guys are showing desire, ability and a will to win, greater than the sum of their parts collective that we would kill for at the moment. Now this has been with 2 different managers (not counting Kenny Millar). We have signed players from Premiership teams, with Premiership experience, have international caps, have captianed Premiership teams on Premiership money. That even though they have great experience STILL don't seem to know how to position themselves, make a run, mark properly and know that it is nigh on impossible to pass to a player tightly marked by 3 opponents. These players turned up in the Championship thinking it was easy and not being at 100%. Doing that means it is difficult to get up to "full speed" if required. It was as clear as day. We are suffering for it now. If you are getting players with Premiership experience and on previous play that we are happy to see signed, does that not show that we have seen these players perform at that level and are happy at the performances they have shown they are capable of? A big fanfare was made of the "quality" & experience of these players and most of us were happy and excited of sorts too see these players play for us. What has happened? A player with over 150 games for us spent the whole time sending easy passes direct to opposition player's feet. That's not Championship level, that's just fucking shit! We have a central defender with over 529 appearances, 490 in the Premiership, showing nothing learned by his experience in defending set pieces??? That's just an example, you don't get to play that regularly at that level if you are shit. May not be the best or quickest, but if you demand that level of salary earn it, show your experience, show your desire. I watch our games and do not see a side that will win. Yes there may be some good bits but they are few and far between. You watch other games.and you can't guarantee who will win. We are meek, submissive, ponderous, slow in decision making and unlike the likes of Livi are less than the sum of our parts. We look lifeless, disinterested and going through the motions. Last night has been coming for weeks. As much as our manager has panicked and filled his breeks, I want to see these players show professional pride, a bit of balls and determination as they are within themselves at the moment, and I want the manager to stop crapping his pants at facing a team below him, put a better balanced team out, and try and win a game. If you have Premiership experience, international caps, earning (demanding) Premiership money I expect it to be shown and not having sub standard, below ability performances excused with "we are a Championship side we are doing well considering" pish. It really annoys me as much as the "we're a Premiership side", "get back where we belong" pish of the last few seasons. If your in the Championship your a Championship side end of. We are in the Premiership we are a Premiership side, the highest level of football Scotland offers, the squad need to learn that, and if you excuse the expressions, man up, grow a set, stop looking for meely mouthed excuses and to shit or get off the pot. The last wee while has NOT been acceptable. Good, well argued post. The longer the season goes on the longer I am not convinced that Mellon has what it takes. He will be here until the end of the season and hopefully we will see an improvement but if we just squeak through to hold our Premiership status his position will need to be reviewed. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 I'll say it again that this is a squad that should be in a relegation fight, and that's where we are. That said we could equally end up top half. Its grim to watch but it's hardly panic stations yet. No team starting Harkes and Powers should expect to win football matches 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishtergrolsch Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 We limped along last season with a monstrous wage bill overpaying pish players who often struggled against part time teams. Thats on RN and TA. We're playing better teams now but we still broadly have the same imbalanced, thin squad. A midfield combo of Harkes and Powers will not win a game against semi-organised juniors. If for some reason he didnt know this, I'm sure he does now. He's managed to bring in a few players but they are patch up jobs at best bar Fuchs. So his options are to go 4 at the back, open up a bit and get horsed like last night or shit fest to a more comfortable yet eye bleeding survival. And yes, we were playing better earlier but with the injuries to Fuchs and Butcher he's had to rethink the team. Mellon is certainly not perfect and there's an element of bed shittery since the Killie game but do I think Neilson would have us anywhere near as high as 6th? f**k no. I recall saying many times saying we'd struggle this season and to be sitting 6th with this squad is a very good achievement. Long way to go though. Personally, I think 5 at the back churning out 0-0 draws with the occasional boring 1-0 win or defeat will be enough to see us through this season and while I'm not looking forward to it, I'm fine with it. If we're talking about next season playing like this then no, I'm not going to be as forgiving. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 If I'm being pedantic (and I am) we are 7th on PPG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mvondo_the_great Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) As much as yesterday's result and a lot of performances pissed me off this season, people who want Mellon gone are either at it or need to wake up. As long as we stay up this season he has done a great job. Next season is the season to start worrying about performances and entertainment value. Even if we play much better and finish next season strongly I'm sure we will see the odd heavy defeat also. Like every season since I've supported the club. It happens. Edited January 28, 2021 by Mvondo_the_great 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dundee Hibernian Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 I've seen Livingston mentioned as a role model a few times, as it seems they used roughly the same players from the promotion season in their first year back up, and have continued with this consistency, the point being 'why can't we'? Having had a look back, the side which won the final match at Firhill to gain promotion in 2018 contributed 6 starters for the first league match the following season, and one of the starters from Firhill was in their line up last night (Pittman). Take from that what you will, but I think it indicates, if I've counted correctly, that we are depending on too many players who are out of their depth in this league, as several were last season at a lower level. Finally, I've not seen Kai Fotheringham mentioned yet, if so apologies, but I thought he looked decent given the lack of confidence and ability around him last night when he came on. He looked to be positive and forward focused, and even managed a couple of shots at goal, unfortunately, and akin to his team mates for the most part, not on target. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannadeechee Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 32 minutes ago, Mvondo_the_great said: As much as yesterday's result and a lot of performances pissed me off this season, people who want Mellon gone are either at it or need to wake up. As long as we stay up this season he has done a great job. Next season is the season to start worrying about performances and entertainment value. Even if we play much better and finish next season strongly I'm sure we will see the odd heavy defeat also. Like every season since I've supported the club. It happens. Firstly I'd like to say I'm not in the "Mellon out" camp, and I hope I'm not coming across as that in my posts. I do however take issue with some of his decisions and tactics as he is not above criticism. To be fair there are not many managers that are and get 100% right. I do take issue with under performing players not being taken out, or the "wrong" midfielder being substituted. Not seeing that being overly cautious puts us a more risk. The fact that it is always the "safe" player that in recent weeks has not worked rather than the slightly more unpredictable player that is more difficult to defend against and helps support the striker. Its the complete change of character in the team from early-ish in the season that attacked and didn't look out of place, to now. It's also the body language of the players, their in field attitudes etc. That don't look like they did earlier in the season. Something has changed. Let's also be fair, if the last few performances had been under Robbie, Csaba, Ray, Mixu or Jackie there would have been uproar. Now I'd like to think I'm fair minded, not reactionary, nor a happy clapper and I am all for managers getting the time they need. After all, like all clubs, we're down on finance with no fans and hospitality and maybe we are struggling with no fans in the ground. Everyone is in the same boat though. My big concern is we are regressing as a team, we are going backwards with our performances, application and from the tv screen demeanour on the park. It isn't just yesterday, if I, and fans like me are getting fed up, we are starting to get more pressure on the team and management. Whatever is going on get it sorted, get some direction, and everyone give themselves a shake. Using the passing as an example if you can't do the basics under no pressure you wouldn't get a game on a Sunday morning doing that, nevermind a professional who has been doing it every day for years. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dundee Hibernian Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 15 minutes ago, Tannadeechee said: Its the complete change of character in the team from early-ish in the season that attacked and didn't look out of place, to now. It's also the body language of the players, their in field attitudes etc. That don't look like they did earlier in the season. Something has changed. I'm wondering if they're giving 20% less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishtergrolsch Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 39 minutes ago, Tannadeechee said: Let's also be fair, if the last few performances had been under Robbie, Csaba, Ray, Mixu or Jackie there would have been uproar. I think the difference with those managers is they all came in and either made the squad worse or did not get anywhere near enough out of the team for the level the team was at. This is still predominantly Robbie the Jobbies Championship Banter Brigade on over inflated wages sitting 6th in the league above from last season. For that I think MM should be given a fair bit of slack. He is not above criticism by any means but we should remember that he is not working with "his" squad which was what Robbie was given a pass for in his first year also. The 5 at the back borefest is awful but rather that than a repeat of last nights Csambles imo. If we stay up and clear of relegation the bloke deserves his 20% wage cut reimbursed. Your point about not replacing under performing players i fully agree with but if the replacements available are mince then as Mixu once said "Whats the fucking point?" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArabFC Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 6 hours ago, invergowrie arab said: No team starting Harkes and Powers should expect to win football matches This. Everyone else might as well shut up. Point made. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumigoo Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 I’m bedding in for 13 more horrendous league games. Last night was the first game I switched off (slightly less dramatic than storming out of a stadium). Really struggling to engage with United at the moment and although I do like Mellon as a person and feel he is at least a bit more ‘genuine’ than some managers we’ve had, the truth is this season has been torture and he has made some horrendous decisions (coupled with us also having some awful players)I’m just hoping Hamilton and County are slightly more shit than we are in the remaining games. Roll on next season! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Connolly Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 If it means we stay up, or even sneak into the top six (and I still can't believe that's where we currently sit), then I can accept eye-bleeding football from mediocre players. I'm struggling to handle getting horsed at home by fucking St Mirren as an acceptable part of that journey. Last night was unacceptable, and if it had been in normal circumstances, I'd have been heading down to the GF Lower to start booing. In fact, the club need to provide some sort of virtual booing section if that sort of shite is going to continue. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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