George Floyd/Black Lives Matter Protests

[Guest TheJTS98]

6 hours ago, GordonS said:

I think it is working, that's why there's pushback. Show Racism the Red Card has achieved absolutely nothing at all. It's the very definition of a tick-box exercise. But taking a knee is making shitty people uncomfortable, and that's how you know it's working. Men they idolise are standing together as one and putting on a show of contrition, submissiveness, supplication, whatever, to make their views clear. That sight is making all the right people squirm.

Rather than acknowledge why they're uncomfortable they deflect onto excuses, with the favourite being taking a knee isn't about racism, it's about a hard left agenda. I'd laugh, but people who should know better are giving breathing space to this idiocy.

Almost all of the anti-racism work done in the UK so far has been "ok you can be racist, it's a free country, can't have any thought police here, just don't do or say racist things in public." It hasn't stopped anyone from actually being racist, though maybe over time successive generations are a little less likely than their parents to hold racist opinions. A lot of activists say that all we've done is sweep racism under the carpet. They used to know who was racist and now they can't tell, but the prejudice and discrimination is still there. Some have said they preferred it when racists called them names because they knew the people who didn't do that were probably alright.

Worth noting, those who say they want to move on from it never suggest an alternative. They just want to stop being made to feel uncomfortable and they don't give a shit about tackling racism.

I still don't see an argument for why the anti-racist message must involve the knee-taking gesture above all others.

I don't agree that the pushback shows that it's working. It shows that the racists are able to make the discussion about something else. While on this board we have general agreement that people shouldn't be booing this, we are essentially an echo chamber. Among the people whose minds this is seeking to change, there is an easy, if wrong, argument that they can use to dismiss this.

The obvious example being the England supporters' representative going on Sky to talk absolute shite. We think he's talking shite, but plenty of people will watch what he says and nod along with it. He feels that the radical left angle gives him cover to go on fucking national tv and oppose this.

Show Racism The Red Card was not perfect and I'm not advocating it as the solution here, although compared to what football was before, its presence alone was a great thing. But it is not beyond the wit of the football community to come up with another symbolic and high-profile way of displaying solidarity against racism that doesn't involve taking the knee. It can't be emphasised enough that there is nothing special about this gesture. I don't understand why so many people want to cling to it when we have all the evidence we need that it just allows racists in the UK to change the subject. We are not America, we don't need to use their imagery. And, like it or not, it now cannot be denied that in the minds of enough people, it is now associated with the radical left. Why not just use something new and focus the conversation?

You mention generational changes. My argument here would be how does a gesture pass the 'Daddy, why are they doing that?' test. With taking a knee the racist da can lecture his kid about the authorities imposing communism on us. With something 'clean' he has no way of avoiding the actual issue with his kid.

The failure to see how easy it is for the targets to dismiss is just head-in-the-sand stuff, imo. The argument about this is being lost. Opposing racism is being lost in the fog about 'politics' etc.

- My suggestion for an alternative would be to completely change the approach. Have proper anti-racism messaging as a central part of the lead-up to a game. Stadiums with big screens should give them over to five minutes of past and present players (pro and Sunday league), coaches, and fans discussing their experiences of racism and the impact it had on them. Then the crowd being asked to join in by clapping or doing something else. Whatever. This could be added to by regularly having people on the pitch pre-game or at half-time to share a genuine story or experience. And there should be an agreed snappy message announced before every game that the crowd are asked to clap. This could easily be accompanied by a weekly media focus on one issue or event. For example, the media having one ex-player's story all week then that being the central focus that Saturday at each ground.

It's a publicity campaign like any other at heart, and should be run properly like one. Part of running a publicity campaign is avoiding things that will turn off the people you are targetting.

I completely disagree with those saying it's working because it's making people angry. You don't effect change by making people angry. You change minds by engaging and educating. Taking the knee is failing to do that. And there's nothing magical about it. It's hit a wall now and needs left behind.

Edited June 11, 2021 by TheJTS98

[pandarilla]

You're suggestion is to find something that makes racist folk comfortable.

There's also no way you can describe taking the knee as an echo chamber now - it's being discussed constantly, enemy forcing other countries presidents to get involved (see Ireland v Hungary).

It's making the racist people angry, and those people's minds are never going to change. Conflict and argument are needed to challenge people. Making folk comfortable with the message will result in the issue becoming sanitised and sterile. Nothing changes like that.

[Guest TheJTS98]

30 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

You're suggestion is to find something that makes racist folk comfortable.

There's also no way you can describe taking the knee as an echo chamber now - it's being discussed constantly, enemy forcing other countries presidents to get involved (see Ireland v Hungary).

It's making the racist people angry, and those people's minds are never going to change. Conflict and argument are needed to challenge people. Making folk comfortable with the message will result in the issue becoming sanitised and sterile. Nothing changes like that.
 

It absolutely is not.

Having your views challenged on a regular basis is hardly making a comfortable environment for racists.

What do you think is being gained by enraging these people and giving them the chance to boo? Who do you think is being won over?

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Benjamin_Nevis]

3 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:

It absolutely is not.

Having your views challenged on a regular basis is hardly making a comfortable environment for racists.

What do you think is being gained by enraging these people and giving them the chance to boo? Who do you think is being won over?

 

Why do you think giving them a nice and cosy message instead will result in them being "won over"? 

I'm genuinely unsure whether you're thick, trolling or an apologist for these sorts of losers. 

 

[vikingTON]

The only way that you can claim that 'it's working because people are unhappy about it' is if you follow the trite line that everyone who doesn't care for it is a massive racist. They're not though. There's also a solid constituency that thinks that it's a largely empty gesture (co-opted no less by one of the biggest brands in football in the EPL) and underlined by the indefinite timeline of a protest with zero definable aims.  

As for success, if immolating your country's de facto home tournament in a storm of back and forth controversy days before it begins is a successful strategy for anti-racist change then I'd hate to see a bad one. And of course if England crash out at the last 16 then the backlash will be enormous, racially driven and ultimately set the cause back. 

[BigDoddyKane]

is it known if any other teams at Euro2020 wont be kneeling

[BigDoddyKane]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

The only way that you can claim that 'it's working because people are unhappy about it' is if you follow the trite line that everyone who doesn't care for it is a massive racist. They're not though. There's also a solid constituency that thinks that it's a largely empty gesture (co-opted no less by one of the biggest brands in football in the EPL) and underlined by the indefinite timeline of a protest with zero definable aims.  

As for success, if immolating your country's de facto home tournament in a storm of back and forth controversy days before it begins is a successful strategy for anti-racist change then I'd hate to see a bad one. And of course if England crash out at the last 16 then the backlash will be enormous, racially driven and ultimately set the cause back. 

Just my opinion but its felt like an empty gesture for months now , at the start it had some impact though

[Guest TheJTS98]

7 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

Why do you think giving them a nice and cosy message instead will result in them being "won over"? 

I'm genuinely unsure whether you're thick, trolling or an apologist for these sorts of losers. 

 

Who said anything about a nice, cosy message?

Why are you so fixated on taking the knee? What's wrong with replacing it with something effective?

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Just now, TheJTS98 said:

Who said anything about a nice, cosy message?

Why are you so fixated on taking the knee? What's wrong with replacing it with something effective?

Well you don't seem to like taking the knee because it upsets racists, so please, what would your suggestion for "something effective" be? 

[Ad Lib]

Scottish National team is having a Dora Gaitskell moment. The wrong people are clapping.

[Mr Waldo]

18 minutes ago, BigDoddyKane said:

is it known if any other teams at Euro2020 wont be kneeling

GROUP A 

Turkey – No confirmation, but did not take the knee in recent games

Italy – No confirmation, but did not take against Czech Republic

Wales – Will take the knee

Switzerland - No confirmation, but did not take knee in recent games

GROUP B 

Denmark – Will take the knee

Finland – Will take the knee

Belgium – Will take the knee

Russia – Will not take the knee

GROUP C 

Netherlands - No confirmation, but players have been vocal in their BLM support

Ukraine – No confirmation, but no evidence to suggest they will

Austria – Will take the knee after joining England in act of solidarity during friendly

North Macedonia – No confirmation, but did not take the knee against Kazakhstan

GROUP D 

England – Will take the knee

Scotland – Will not be taking the knee after players and staff held discussions and deemed the gesture to have become 'diluted.'

Croatia – Players given the choice; did not take the knee in most recent friendly game

Czech Republic – Will not take the knee 

GROUP E 

Spain – No confirmation, have avoided gesture in recent friendlies

Sweden – No confirmation, have avoided gesture in recent friendlies

Poland – Will not take the knee

Slovakia – Will not take the knee

GROUP F 

Hungary – Will not take the knee, as was the case against Republic of Ireland

Portugal – No confirmation, but did take knee in recent Spain friendly

France – No confirmation, but star players are in favour of taking the knee

Germany – No confirmation, but did not take the knee in recent friendlie

[Ad Lib]

14 minutes ago, virginton said:

The only way that you can claim that 'it's working because people are unhappy about it' is if you follow the trite line that everyone who doesn't care for it is a massive racist. They're not though. There's also a solid constituency that thinks that it's a largely empty gesture (co-opted no less by one of the biggest brands in football in the EPL) and underlined by the indefinite timeline of a protest with zero definable aims.  

As for success, if immolating your country's de facto home tournament in a storm of back and forth controversy days before it begins is a successful strategy for anti-racist change then I'd hate to see a bad one. And of course if England crash out at the last 16 then the backlash will be enormous, racially driven and ultimately set the cause back. 

If someone is booing it because they think it’s an empty gesture they are incredibly fucking stupid.

The response of someone who “thinks it’s an empty gesture” should be to stand there silently and do nothing.

If you’re booing it you’re not just being hostile as to its efficacy. You’re being hostile to the thing itself.

Which probably means you’re either a racist or a walloper enabling the racists.

“Racists should be made to feel uncomfortable” is a desirable end in itself. If someone taking a knee makes you feel uncomfortable you should probably think very carefully why that is, given just how many other empty gestures by footballers on football pitches don’t seem to have the same effect.

[Guest TheJTS98]

11 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

Well you don't seem to like taking the knee because it upsets racists, so please, what would your suggestion for "something effective" be? 

I outlined quite clearly my suggestion.

Done right it would be much more powerful than kneeling down, and it comes with no baggage to allow racists to dismiss it.

It's telling that you assume anyone who disagrees with you is trolling, thick, or a racist apologist.

You treat The Knee almost like a religious act. It's just one option of many.

[dorlomin]

13 hours ago, GordonS said:

I think it is working, that's why there's pushback. Show Racism the Red Card has achieved absolutely nothing at all. It's the very definition of a tick-box exercise. But taking a knee is making shitty people uncomfortable, and that's how you know it's working. Men they idolise are standing together as one and putting on a show of contrition, submissiveness, supplication, whatever, to make their views clear. That sight is making all the right people squirm.

Rather than acknowledge why they're uncomfortable they deflect onto excuses, with the favourite being taking a knee isn't about racism, it's about a hard left agenda. I'd laugh, but people who should know better are giving breathing space to this idiocy.

Millionaires imitating NFL millionaires. You are catastrophising the current state of society. We have made huge strides in reducing racism across society. You are simply rationalising your desire to polarise and humiliate. Knock yourself out. Have fun. You are wallowing in self indulgent emotions of a sense of heroic purpose over a triviality. You are gloating at how  polarising it is. 

 

Barring a major financial crash, the Tories will win again in the general election in May 2023. 

Between now and then people will have many many great "victories" where you rebrand breast feeding "chestfeeding" to "trigger the gammons", or where some companies change their logos for a few weeks to "reflect pride" to "trigger the gammons". 

In your filter bubble you are heroic fighters for everything good. Outside your filter bubble most of this shit has nearly zero impact on wider society. 

The UK will continue to become an increasingly less racist society. The current cabinet is among the most racially diverse in history. It also gets to write the countries economic policies. That is where the real prize in politics used to lie. Now its dull buffoons swallowing the most puff piece gesture politics and leaving all the grown up stuff like winning elections and writing economic policy to the right. 

By the time the next likely government is up for re-election (2028) most of you will be at an age when things like pensions suddenly become a big issue. The trend in national demographics will be for their being far less working aged people for more retirees. The tories will have had 18 years of writing the economic policies you will be living the last decades of your lives struggling under. 

I do not care if some English footballers "take a knee". Its corporate marketing to sell England football shirts, nothing more. Its also a distraction for those in side their information filter bubbles to puff out their chests and fantasize they are doing something heroic. 

 

 

Next you will be telling me how the pride flag at Tesco's is all about "contrition, submissiveness, supplication, I would advice (and will be ignored) for people log off the internet. Re-engage with the real world. Relax and start thinking more, feeling less. People need to take at least a month a year away from online politics to help reset your brains responses. These places are simply training tools for outrage. You are programming yourself to be outraged and emotional rather than using reason and rationality to come to conclusions. This drives the political atmosphere of catastrophising every incident or getting sucked into these kind of online mobs. 

My other advice (most will ignore): If something makes you angry online, put your hands flat on the table, take your shoes off and feel the ground. Take 3 deep breaths and then name 5  things in the room. This is a "grounding technique". It is used to help break people out of the kind of brain fog they get into.

People booing some corporate gestures as "marxism" is laughable. But it should give you an in site in to the kind of idiocies that online filter bubbles suck people into. Its not just "them".

Have a nice day. Enjoy the football. Dont get whipped into a fantasy of relevance over the irrelevant. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by dorlomin

[DA Baracus]

8 minutes ago, dorlomin said:

I do not care if some English footballers "take a knee". Its corporate marketing to sell England football shirts, nothing more.

A mental take.

[NotThePars]

Thinking fondly of Detournement’s “just a guy enjoying his life in liberal Britain” jibe the other weeks.

[vikingTON]

18 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

If someone is booing it because they think it’s an empty gesture they are incredibly fucking stupid.

The response of someone who “thinks it’s an empty gesture” should be to stand there silently and do nothing.

Standing silently is in the typical Western cultural context a mark of support and approval, champ. That's why minute's silences and the annual Poppyfest season are literally fixated on obtaining exactly that desired response from the audience. 

Short of a down with this sort of thing placard the avenue for non-racist disapproval appears to be non-existent in your bizarre categorisation. 

Quote

If you’re booing it you’re not just being hostile as to its efficacy. You’re being hostile to the thing itself.

The thing in question being an empty gesture lifted wholesale from the US, cynically co-opted by the EPL and with no definable aims? Oh no!

There were (much more effective) anti-racism campaigns before taking the knee began and there will be more after it is consigned to the dustbin of history as a terrible strategy. 

Quote

Which probably means you’re either a racist or a walloper enabling the racists.

No, this is not actually a logical extension of the above. 

Quote

“Racists should be made to feel uncomfortable” is a desirable end in itself. If someone taking a knee makes you feel uncomfortable you should probably think very carefully why that is, given just how many other empty gestures by footballers on football pitches don’t seem to have the same effect.

'Feel uncomfortable' is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this discussion, when it can be swapped out for 'non-racists who believe that it's a tedious pile of shite'. 

One of those sentiments takes the knee campaign down a pointless cul-de-sac and oh look here we are. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by vikingTON

[Gordon EF]

47 minutes ago, TheJTS98 said:

It absolutely is not.

Having your views challenged on a regular basis is hardly making a comfortable environment for racists.

What do you think is being gained by enraging these people and giving them the chance to boo? Who do you think is being won over?

 

To be fair, I don't think anyone is really trying to change racists' minds. You can't split the world neatly into racists and non-racists.

The vast majority of racism is probably by people who aren't overtly racists and don't see themselves as racist, they just think it's OK to make generalisations and judgements about people based on ethnicity. Whether it's working or not, the aim of BLM and all the associated stuff should be to make those people question some of the things they think or say.

[Guest TheJTS98]

8 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

To be fair, I don't think anyone is really trying to change racists' minds. You can't split the world neatly into racists and non-racists.

The vast majority of racism is probably by people who aren't overtly racists and don't see themselves as racist, they just think it's OK to make generalisations and judgements about people based on ethnicity. Whether it's working or not, the aim of BLM and all the associated stuff should be to make those people question some of the things they think or say.

That should be the aim of any anti-racism messaging at the fitba.

The problem with taking the knee is that it doesn't have an aim. Also, it's now so mired in controversy that it's useless for the purpose people want it to serve.

I'd argue it should go further. Messaging at the fitba should be aimed at your part-time racists and children. There should be a message and a culture of this being for dicks and something not to do.

Taking the knee doesn't do that. I mean, in the British context what does it actually mean anyway?

It's quite frustrating to see so many people almost seem to think of taking a knee as an end in itself, and the mere suggestion of stopping it must be attacked. There's a pseudo-religious aspect to this.

Taking a knee is not the issue here. And the people fixating on this gesture are taking their eye off the main goal, and it's sad that many of them doing that are also implying some kind of malice in those suggesting it should be stopped.

It should be stopped. It's useless and it is now causing a problem rather than serving any purpose.

Edited June 11, 2021 by TheJTS98

[Gordon EF]

1 minute ago, TheJTS98 said:

That should be the aim of any anti-racism messaging at the fitba.

The problem with taking the knee is that it doesn't have an aim. Also, it's now so mired in controversy that it's useless for the purpose people want it to serve.

I mean, in the British context what does it actually mean anyway?

It's quite frustrating to see so many people almost seem to think of taking a knee as an end in itself, and the mere suggestion of stopping it must be attacked. There's a pseudo-religious aspect to this.

Taking a knee is not the issue here. And the people fixating on this gesture are taking their eye off the main goal, and it's sad that many of them doing that are also implying some kind of malice in those suggesting it should be stopped.

It should be stopped. It's useless and it is now causing a problem rather than serving any purpose.

I don't necessarily disagree with much of that. I don't think, from a pragmatic view point, taking the knee is going to do much from this point on. I don't think it's doing any harm either. If someone is getting absolutely raging about it, it's unlikely they'd ever have been very receptive to any discussion about it.