East Region Juniors

[invergowrie arab]

30 minutes ago, colourofthegrass said:

If the Highland League really don't want to play as far south as Dundee. (it's not clear cos there has been no public move by the Tayside clubs) then they should have to split the North of the Tay area with the Tayside clubs equally.

So the winner of the Highland League plays off against the winner of the Tayside League (assuming licenced). Who then plays the Lowland League for the right to play the SPFL Club 42.

That would concentrate the minds of the Highland League blazers.

There can't be a third league or more teams at Tier 5. The SFA have already said this.

I don't see there would be any problem with Dundee teams in HFL as they have already signed up to be a feeder league to Tier 4 on the basis that Dundee and Angus teams might come into the HFL. 

[Cyclizine]

4 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

There can't be a third league or more teams at Tier 5. The SFA have already said this.

I don't see there would be any problem with Dundee teams in HFL as they have already signed up to be a feeder league to Tier 4 on the basis that Dundee and Angus teams might come into the HFL. 

Aye, the HFL were quite prepared to accept Brechin City into their league if they'd dropped out of the SPFL, even if Brechin themselves were fighting against it.

[Pyramidic]

A starting point might be an online petition that shows the “direction of travel” where the Tayside clubs want to be. At the moment this could be the HL zone of influence or the LL/ EOSFL zone of influence. We do not know.

Until the Tayside clubs decide where they actually want to be, little progress can be made. At the moment another season in the ERJFA beckons. 

Perhaps it is up to Lochee, Broughty or Carnoustie to make the first move and the rest will follow.

[FairWeatherFan]

36 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

Aye, the HFL were quite prepared to accept Brechin City into their league if they'd dropped out of the SPFL, even if Brechin themselves were fighting against it.

Brechin City, Montrose, even mentioned the bigger name Dundee area juniors when the pyramid started. They knew what they were signing up for as it was better than being ripped apart by the alternative.

Plus people forget the Highland League isn't a single hive mind, or were stuck under the thrall of Cove. Splitting in to 2 didn't get thrown out and was pretty well supported.

For a decent number of Highland clubs jumping down the A90 would be easier going further out West. As soon as they get a pyramid with North Juniors that will become even more true.

[invergowrie arab]

I suppose an alternative theory for the bigger clubs is if humping Coupar Angus, Arbroath Vics and Blair doesn't appeal then join EOSL, work on a license and then apply to HL later.

[LongTimeLurker]

A reminder of some recent posts from people with strong inside knowledge:

On 06/02/2021 at 23:13, Jimmy Shaker said:

No one except the crayon-wielding pyramid planners on here believes the Tayside lot should be bolted into the Highland pyramid set-up. They are never mentioned in conversation about the subject in real life, and very rarely on FitbaNorth.com.

It was foretold when the pyramid was set up with two divisions that this could get Lionel with regards to the clubs in the middle of the country so it's no surprise at this point to see them in limbo. Not entirely sure why the Tayside clubs would want a place in the Highland pyramid, other than the belief they'd get out of it quicker.

 

On 07/02/2021 at 20:47, patriot1 said:

I'm not going to give away my identity or reveal my sources but it WAS stated at last year's  AGM that any team in Scotland could apply to the EOS and that the HL/LL line only applies at tier 5.

At no point have the EOS said that Luncarty were a special case. It's only on this forum that the whole "the ground is just over the dividing line" debate has taken place. That was a complete red herring and yet we are still debating it on here.

I have no strong opinion on whether Tayside teams should be in the HL or LL catchment area. All I want is for all teams to be in the same pyramid system.

You would think that I would want St Andrews to be in with the Tayside teams from a travelling point of view but as I have said many times in this forum I get really annoyed at everyone wanting to minimise travelling. We are professional football clubs who should accept that we need to drive for a couple of hours for games.

 

On 20/02/2021 at 10:10, Tynierose said:

Indeed, though if clubs who have traditionally always been east or west irrespective of grade get to jump back and forth because it suits them then the game is up.

No surprise there is such confusion though when you have an idiot like Rod Petrie sitting in league meetings telling clubs they can play where they want.   In fact at one meeting he told east clubs they could go play in the south if they fancied it.

Earlier someone asked how we sort it, that's up to the leagues to show some  common sense but surely to goodness you look at where you have always played, who your fans see as your rivals, postcodes perhaps though that can lead to anomalies.

Anyway for me the West Lothian clubs are east.

 

....and going further back if info emanating from Kelty is to be believed the only reason the much fixated upon Club 42 relegation boundary is still in place is that a request for money by the LL to compensate their clubs for extra travel was knocked back by the SPFL around this time last year:

 

On 09/05/2020 at 12:45, pipedreamer said:

Yes, the lowland league was told by the spfl that if they didn’t alter their rules to allow Brechin to drop into the league If relegated, that they would lose their places in spfl competitions (league cup and challenge cup).

The spfl was asked to supply funding to compensate clubs for the increased travel to Angus but point blank refused.

 

The HL and SFA would both have had to be on board for any change to that rule to be possible. The only stumbling block to it happening was the LL who subsequently rejected the rule change at their 2020 AGM after there had been no club 42 playoff for Kelty and Brora at the end of last season.

Edited February 22, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Jimmy Shaker]

15 hours ago, colourofthegrass said:

That would concentrate the minds of the Highland League blazers.

Too many Highland League blazers would be quite happy with another obstacle such as a pre-pyramid playoff playoff shoved in the way of progress. 

[Marten]

Those Whitburn comments don't surprise me at all. When I was there towards the end of the 2018/19 season, I overheard a conversation of some people (including at least 1 committee member) deriding the clubs who left the juniors in 2018 as "traitors", stating there won't be any more, the grass isn't always greener on the other side, quite a few clubs were very unhappy in the EOS and wanted to move back as a result. They clearly had their heads very deep in the sand.

Such a shame because if that club is run well, they would have the potential to be be near the top of the EOS Premier and even have a shot at promotion to the LL.

[Pyramidic]

If the West Lothian rump are to be allowed into the WOSFL would this be a gamechanger re the (non) delineation of league boundaries?

Would it allow Lochee and Broughty to have more ammunition to make their case for joining the EOSFL? Would the majority of EOSFL clubs give the Dundee clubs a more sympathetic hearing if it becomes clear that the league boundaries are flexible and the North/South divide does not apply below Tier 5.

The next month or so will be interesting as answers to these questions become clear.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Pyramidic

[LongTimeLurker]

40 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

If the West Lothian rump are to be allowed into the WOSFL would this be a gamechanger re the (non) delineation of league boundaries?

Would it allow Lochee and Broughty to have more ammunition to make their case for joining the EOSFL? ...

There are no boundaries so the West Lothian and Tayside clubs can apply to the WoS and EoS, respectively. There's no guarantee they will/would get in though as the existing members of the WoS and EoS are also fully within their rights to decide that they don't want the West Lothian and Tayside applicant clubs in their leagues. A similar comment also applies on any application from a Tayside club to the HL, NCL or north region juniors or to having a new Midland League as a tier 6 feeder to either the LL or HL. There's no rigidly enforceable master plan from on high on this stuff, so clubs trying to enter from outside the pyramid could conceivably wind up in limbo where pyramid entry is concerned, if none of the existing pyramid leagues want them.

Edited February 22, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[AlanCamelonfan]

8 hours ago, Marten said:

Those Whitburn comments don't surprise me at all. When I was there towards the end of the 2018/19 season, I overheard a conversation of some people (including at least 1 committee member) deriding the clubs who left the juniors in 2018 as "traitors", stating there won't be any more, the grass isn't always greener on the other side, quite a few clubs were very unhappy in the EOS and wanted to move back as a result. They clearly had their heads very deep in the sand.

Such a shame because if that club is run well, they would have the potential to be be near the top of the EOS Premier and even have a shot at promotion to the LL.

Their was people up their saying boness and linlithgow were coming back when the tribute acts started

[Marten]

Their was people up their saying boness and linlithgow were coming back when the tribute acts started

Yes, heard that too...

[Bestsinceslicebread]

On 22/02/2021 at 10:39, LongTimeLurker said:

There are no boundaries so the West Lothian and Tayside clubs can apply to the WoS and EoS, respectively. There's no guarantee they will/would get in though as the existing members of the WoS and EoS are also fully within their rights to decide that they don't want the West Lothian and Tayside applicant clubs in their leagues. A similar comment also applies on any application from a Tayside club to the HL, NCL or north region juniors or to having a new Midland League as a tier 6 feeder to either the LL or HL.There's no rigidly enforceable master plan from on high on this stuff, so clubs trying to enter from outside the pyramid could conceivably wind up in limbo where pyramid entry is c oncerned, if none of the existing pyramid leagues want them.

Agree with everything you say except I have a problem with the part in bold and the part of a Midland league at Tier 6.
why would the Midland league come in at Tier 6, the same level as the EOSFL premier, WOSFL Premier and the SOSFL.. Who would be in it and would the standard be high enough to merit Tier 6, (although most debate that the SOSFL is an inferior league to the other two).  I can see many teams in the EOSFL not happy about this allowing teams from the Tayside and Dundee area which are mostly made up of junior teams come straight in at the same level.  I don't know the level of football out there but I can only go on past history and they don't seem to have done too well in the Scottish Junior cup. Although my research on this has been fleeting so don't mind being corrected.

Just hypothetically here

If there was a Team A based in the center of Glasgow and they fitted all criteria for inclusion in the WOSFL and at Pyramid level the only association they can join is the WOSLF but then somehow the clubs in the WOSFL didn't allow them enter to the WOSFL then this would not be right.  It should go to a higher level to say, 'sorry, they fit all criteria so they will be in your league'.  I feel is teams voted teams out then they wouldn't be any better than your Brechins, Stenhousemuirs etc.. who don't want change

Edited February 25, 2021 by Bestsinceslicebread

[LongTimeLurker]

A tier 6 Midland League feeding into the LL is a scenario that sometimes gets mentioned by people from the Dundee area but I agree it would be problematic to have four leagues feeding into the LL. Flip side of that is that if the HL also don't want a league like that as a tier 6 feeder then it isn't happening in that context either no matter how much that messes up some people's vision of what the pyramid should be. I have no strong opinion either way on where Tayside fits in and I am not campaigning for anything.

Think you'll find Tayside's record in the SJC was actually quite reasonable in terms of finalists if you went back 10 to 30 years ago. Tayport (technically in Fife but very much a Dundee area team) were very strong for many years after stepping up from the amateurs to the Tayside juniors setup before the superleagues came in. All-Tayside finals even happened in that era with Carnoustie Panmure and Lochee United:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Junior_Cup

In more recent seasons, Lochee United have tended to be a major factor in the latter stages and Broughty Athletic might still be playing in the closing stages of last season's competition this year lockdowns permitting. The Dundee juniors scene is a lot stronger than Aberdeen's where the HL takes most of the best players away.

On the last bit, the SoS or EoS might be a plan B in that scenario and I guess that's one of the arguments for not having fixed boundaries even though I agree with you that a higher authority should be able to intervene on appeal instead. No fixed boundaries provides flexibility to fix an issue like that where a club that clearly should be allowed into the senior grade is being blocked from doing so for whatever reason. Forget the gory details but Gretna 2008 winding up in the EoS rather than the SoS might be a relatively recent example of that happening in practice.

 

[Marten]

Personally, I'd rather have us in a larger league than just with the (current) Tayside juniors. Regardless of which of the previously mentioned options (EOS, merger with NRJFA, Midland league with Perth & Fife), some of which are obviously more realistic than others. But I'd prefer to have a higher variety of opposition and the gulf in standard between some stronger & weaker Tayside teams is just too big for one division in my opinion.

But ultimately, I just want this uncertainty to end, regardless of which of the many options that gets floated on here ends up being the solution.

[invergowrie arab]

3 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Flip side of that is that if the HL also don't want a league like that as a tier 6 feeder then it isn't happening in that context either no matter how much that messes up some people's vision of what the pyramid should be. 

 

Were that to happen the SFA/SPFL should tell them it's their right to accept any league applicants/feeder leagues they like but that they are no longer the feeder league for the SPFL.

A new Northern League would spring up overnight.

Which is why it will never happen.

[LongTimeLurker]

In recent years, the SFA and SPFL boards have actually both sided quite strongly with the idea that Dundee and Angus clubs should fall under the LL catchment, if they want to be. The idea that Tayside is definitively in the HL catchment is only really something you see on P&B at this point.

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

In recent years, the SFA and SPFL boards have actually both sided quite strongly with the idea that Dundee and Angus clubs should fall under the LL catchment, if they want to be. The idea that Tayside is definitively in the HL catchment is only really something you see on P&B at this point.

Sorry, LTL, but even you know this isn't true. The boards might "side strongly", although I've yet to see any evidence of this, but unless the Highland/Lowland boundary is moved north, it is a fact that any SPFL2 club north of the line will be relegated to the Highland League if they lose the playoff. It's clearly stated in the SPFL regulations. Yes, Ken Ferguson might prefer Brechin to go Lowland, but unless he convinces all the signatories to the playoff, it isn't going to happen. I don't disagree that it might in the future.

[LongTimeLurker]

^^^prime example of myopic P&B posts that latch onto the one thing they can find that fits their preferred line of argument and extrapolate wildly from there rather than looking at the totality of the available information that's a lot more complex.

Edited February 24, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

26 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

^^^prime example of myopic P&B posts that latch onto the one thing they can find that fits their preferred line of argument and extrapolate wildly from there rather than looking at the totality of the available information that's a lot more complex.

The totality of information from your perspective also includes things where you fill in gaps of knowledge with your own opinion.

Edited February 24, 2021 by FairWeatherFan