Silvio Tattiescone Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Just now, virginton said: I agree that the bottom three tiers of the SPFL shouldn't be playing. Indeed, I said back in the summer that they shouldn't have started at all and it was complete and utter idiocy for clubs to do so with no credible prospect of fans returning to grounds. However that's got nothing to do with the reasons for this denial of a restart, or for the two professional tiers to still be playing now. From the perspective of the government, the cut-off is logical and the decision to not let Elgin head down to Stranraer when the country is being told to stay at home for all non-essential reasons entirely obvious and straightforward. The Championship is semi-professional. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 1 minute ago, virginton said: Because the SG is now weighing in on whether clubs should restart, as part of the country's general reopening strategy. The exact same thing happened in 2020: the leagues were suspended by the football authorities and the green light to restart sought from the SG. And the professional/non-professional distinction is important. Travel for essential work purposes is covered within the existing restrictions: so a professional football club can travel up to Inverness or vice versa because that's a fundamental part of their job. There is no essential reason for Blackburn United or Gala Fairydean to travel because that is not a job. I guess where we disagree is that I don't think someone playing football (professional, semi-professional or amateur) is carrying out essential work but we'll leave it there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Just now, NewBornBairn said: The Championship is semi-professional. No it isn't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Tattiescone Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Just now, virginton said: No it isn't. What's your criteria for professional and semi-professional then? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David W Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Falkirk fans' ignorance of the SPFL's workings is perhaps understandable given they don't even know what the letters stand for. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Tattiescone Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 1 minute ago, David W said: Falkirk fans' ignorance of the SPFL's workings is perhaps understandable given they don't even know what the letters stand for. If only it changed officially to Sex Pests Football League, Clyde would be champions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamonds are Forever Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 1 hour ago, pleslie99 said: Its frustrating that football can't continue but let's be honest and realistic. The rest of the country is in "lockdown". There are numerous businesses up and down the country struggling to survive due to the pandemic. Why should football clubs, PT ones at that, be allowed to play when the rest of us are locked up unable to do anything? Id love to play football, id love to see my family, there's loads id love to do but can't. People can bleat about the stats, the data, the government, the rates all they like. The fact of the matter is we are in lockdown and whilst the rest of us are locked up at home, so should PT footballers. Ok I wait for the argument about the top 2 leagues playing but there are numerous reasons they are allowed that we all know. Whether we like it or not is another matter. If everyone listened to the advice, abided by the rules and done what we are asked then we might get back a bit earlier. I for one am sick fed up of this pandemic, I want everything I enjoyed in my life back, including football, but until its safe we all need to suck it up and deal with it. It's not another matter, it completely defeats your own argument. I agree with the central crux of your argument - that if we are meant to be in lockdown then football should not be played, but to then say you have no issue with full-time football going ahead makes no sense. You state that if people were following restrictions etc then this would be over sooner, well maybe if we also stopped hundreds of players, coaches, physios, coach drivers, journalists, TV crews, match reporters etc needlessly driving across the country every weekend and midweek that would also get us back to normal sooner. I can't travel across regions to see my own family, but one of those clowns on Sportsound can travel to talk rubbish about a football game, on what planet is that okay? Absolutely no-one will convince me that Arbroath versus Alloa or Hamilton versus Ross County (or even Rangers versus Celtic) is in any way essential or serves any benefit to public health. Businesses and livelihoods have been shut down that serve far more benefit to society than professional football. Businesses where I'm sure the owners are willing and able to undergo regular testing (which is the most common argument I hear supporting football continuing) yet they aren't allowed to, what an earth gives football the right to continue over them? We haven't even got schools open, but people are okay with football continuing, it's just crazy. If people think that football continuing serves some important service for society then they are free to argue that, however the argument would have to involve all leagues continuing because whatever the basis of their argument is wouldn't suddenly not apply when you drop from the second tier to the third tier. And they would have to find a reason to argue why Alloa versus Queen of the South should be allowed, but people seeing their own family isn't, or children going to school, which seems like a pretty tough argument to make. But your position, that some football is essential, but some isn't, is entirely inconsistent. For me it is pretty simple, if we are meant to be in a lockdown when only essential services carry on then football at all levels stops. And when things start opening back up again it should be pretty far down the list. I honestly don't get how that is even a debate in a sane society. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 56 minutes ago, NewBornBairn said: What's your criteria for professional and semi-professional then? A professional league is one in which the majority of the clubs are full-time. A semi-professional league is when part-time football is in the majority instead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleslie99 Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 6 minutes ago, Diamonds are Forever said: It's not another matter, it completely defeats your own argument. I agree with the central crux of your argument - that if we are meant to be in lockdown then football should not be played, but to then say you have no issue with full-time football going ahead makes no sense. You state that if people were following restrictions etc then this would be over sooner, well maybe if we also stopped hundreds of players, coaches, physios, coach drivers, journalists, TV crews, match reporters etc needlessly driving across the country every weekend and midweek that would also get us back to normal sooner. I can't travel across regions to see my own family, but one of those clowns on Sportsound can travel to talk rubbish about a football game, on what planet is that okay? Absolutely no-one will convince me that Arbroath versus Alloa or Hamilton versus Ross County (or even Rangers versus Celtic) is in any way essential or serves any benefit to public health. Businesses and livelihoods have been shut down that serve far more benefit to society than professional football. Businesses where I'm sure the owners are willing and able to undergo regular testing (which is the most common argument I hear supporting football continuing) yet they aren't allowed to, what an earth gives football the right to continue over them? We haven't even got schools open, but people are okay with football continuing, it's just crazy. If people think that football continuing serves some important service for society then they are free to argue that, however the argument would have to involve all leagues continuing because whatever the basis of their argument is wouldn't suddenly not apply when you drop from the second tier to the third tier. And they would have to find a reason to argue why Alloa versus Queen of the South should be allowed, but people seeing their own family isn't, or children going to school, which seems like a pretty tough argument to make. But your position, that some football is essential, but some isn't, is entirely inconsistent. For me it is pretty simple, if we are meant to be in a lockdown when only essential services carry on then football at all levels stops. And when things start opening back up again it should be pretty far down the list. I honestly don't get how that is even a debate in a sane society. I totally agree with you. I think you picked up my point wrong. I was merely mentioning it as I knew some would come on and say "but they can play and we cant". I know why the top 2 leagues are playing and why the decision was made to let them carry on. I dont agree with that decision. Football isn't essential and its not ok, in my opinion, to be travelling across the country to play games when everyone else is in lockdown. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Tattiescone Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Just now, virginton said: A professional league is one in which the majority of the clubs are full-time. A semi-professional league is when part-time football is in the majority instead. No. A professional league is one where all of the participants are professional, ie football is their profession. A semi-professional league is one where some or all of the participants are not professionals, ie football is not their primary employment. All leagues outside the Premier are therefore semi-professional as they contain a mix of full time and part time clubs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamonds are Forever Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Just now, pleslie99 said: I totally agree with you. I think you picked up my point wrong. I was merely mentioning it as I knew some would come on and say "but they can play and we cant". I know why the top 2 leagues are playing and why the decision was made to let them carry on. I dont agree with that decision. Football isn't essential and its not ok, in my opinion, to be travelling across the country to play games when everyone else is in lockdown. Yes I feel like you have the same opinion, as I said I agreed with your main argument, but perhaps that you almost had more of an acceptance that there was no point debating it anymore, which is where I differ. The fact we currently have a society where schools are shut (amongst countless other more important things than football) but allowances can be made for professional football to be played I find genuinely disgraceful and I think it's important that this lunacy is pointed out and people are made to try and defend this position. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Moonster said: I guess where we disagree is that I don't think someone playing football (professional, semi-professional or amateur) is carrying out essential work but we'll leave it there. I don't think that it is essential work either, but it is at least genuinely a job (more specifically, an occupation) in the top two tiers when it is not in the leagues below. Though if we had removed the essential work criteria from football then games would have been postponed all through the autumn in tiers 3 and 4 areas as well, so that's not a new issue. The leagues would have already been binned by now. I doubt that the SG was staying on top of how many leagues were using the elite sport exemption and the most recent Scottish Cup round just exposed the absurdity of the existing system. Then the post-Christmas spike finished it off. Edited February 9, 2021 by vikingTON 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 5 minutes ago, NewBornBairn said: No. A professional league is one where all of the participants are professional, ie football is their profession. A semi-professional league is one where some or all of the participants are not professionals, ie football is not their primary employment. All leagues outside the Premier are therefore semi-professional as they contain a mix of full time and part time clubs. Try taking up your total nonsense, back of a fag packet argument with the Scottish Professional Football League champ. You're quite simply wrong though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Tattiescone Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, virginton said: Try taking up your total nonsense, back of a fag packet argument with the Scottish Professional Football League champ. You're quite simply wrong though. Quote The Scottish Professional Football League (SPFL) is the national men's association football league in Scotland. The league was formed in June 2013 following a merger between the Scottish Premier League and the Scottish Football League.[1][2] As well as operating its league competition, which consists of the top four levels of the Scottish football league system, the SPFL also operates two domestic cup competitions Swing and a miss, as they say. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Erm yes chump, so unless all 42 clubs are professional then by your definition it cannot be a 'professional' league at all! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Tattiescone Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 1 hour ago, virginton said: However that's got nothing to do with the reasons for this denial of a restart, or for the two professional tiers to still be playing now. From the perspective of the government, the cut-off is logical and the decision to not let Elgin head down to Stranraer when the country is being told to stay at home for all non-essential reasons entirely obvious and straightforward. 4 minutes ago, virginton said: Erm yes chump, so unless all 42 clubs are professional then by your definition it cannot be a 'professional' league at all! What's it to be then, when you talk about "the two professional tiers" the implication is the other two aren't professional. The cut-off from the point of view of government is illogical as all three lower tiers contain a mix of part time and full time teams so the imagined ability to create a sporting bubble within the leagues is impossible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, NewBornBairn said: What's it to be then, when you talk about "the two professional tiers" the implication is the other two aren't professional. Only you have invented in your own mind the requirement that All Clubs Must Be Professional or It's Not Professional At All. The top two tiers are professional by virtue of having a (clear) majority of full-time sides within them, which has been the case for decades. In the same way that tiers 3 and 4 have been overwhelmingly semi-professional in the same period. The overall structure of the SPFL as well as its predecessors is clearly professional: every league within it is not professional and never has been. Quote The cut-off from the point of view of government is illogical as all three lower tiers contain a mix of part time and full time teams so the imagined ability to create a sporting bubble within the leagues is impossible. The idea of a sporting bubble is completely irrelevant to the government's decision. Which is why lower leagues offering to run tests has made no difference either. The distinction is between professional leagues whose employees have an essential (not really but that's the argument) reason to travel to their workplace during national restrictions and semi-professional leagues who do not. Edited February 9, 2021 by vikingTON 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Tattiescone Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 1 minute ago, virginton said: Only you have invented in your own mind the requirement that All Clubs Must Be Professional or It's Not a Professional League. The top two tiers are professional by virtue of having a (clear) majority of full-time sides within them, which has incidentally been the case for decades. In the same way that tiers 3 and 4 have been overwhelmingly semi-professional in the same period. The overall structure is for professional football,: every league within it is not and never has been. The idea of a sporting bubble is completely irrelevant to the government's decision. Which is why lower leagues offering to run tests has made no difference either. The distinction is between professional leagues whose employees have an essential (not really but that's logic) reason to travel to their workplace during national restrictions and semi-professional leagues who do not. It's nothing to do with "clear majorities". You're inventing in your head the idea that a mix of F/T & P/T clubs in the Premier and Championship makes them professional leagues but a mix of F/T and P/T clubs in Leagues one and two makes them semi-professional. It's an artificial construct. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bairn88 Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 15 minutes ago, virginton said: Only you have invented in your own mind the requirement that All Clubs Must Be Professional or It's Not Professional At All. The top two tiers are professional by virtue of having a (clear) majority of full-time sides within them, which has been the case for decades. In the same way that tiers 3 and 4 have been overwhelmingly semi-professional in the same period. The overall structure of the SPFL as well as its predecessors is clearly professional: every league within it is not professional and never has been. The idea of a sporting bubble is completely irrelevant to the government's decision. Which is why lower leagues offering to run tests has made no difference either. The distinction is between professional leagues whose employees have an essential (not really but that's the argument) reason to travel to their workplace during national restrictions and semi-professional leagues who do not. “You have invented in your own mind”, whilst you’ve manufactured some definition of full time league on some arbitrary amount of part time/full time clubs in that league. Bizarre. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerthewitness Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 What if a player only has a part time contract and no other job, for example: a youngster looking to make a career in the game? I'd consider him "professional". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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