Financial collapse of Rangers FC in 2012

[G51]

20 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

I was meaning more about the age profile overlapping with most people's peak bampot years

Personally speaking I was so crazy at the age of 20 that I used to sometimes go to watch Partick Thistle but most folk don't go that far off the rails
 

Gotcha. Well look, I can't go ahead and claim I was a saint at that age either - I once gave some tourists the wrong directions on purpose.

[AJF]

2 minutes ago, G51 said:

Gotcha. Well look, I can't go ahead and claim I was a saint at that age either - I once gave some tourists the wrong directions on purpose.

Absolute animal.

[G51]

11 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

I'm not saying the club necessarily consciously advocates sectarianism, indeed I'm sure the club itself is not particularly bothered about religion. I would suggest that they take steps to eradicate overt bigotry within Ibrox but are also very mindful of not alienating a fairly significant element of the support that sees Rangers as a vehicle for some of their non-football beliefs/politics. I'm not 100% convinced on your position that promoting this culture is fine as long as a charity benefits, but we're getting into waters you could argue for days and it's not really worth it.

 

 

I would counter that by saying that launching a campaign to make it clear that expressing sectarian beliefs is intolerable is pretty uncompromising on that position.

To be clear, my argument is not "military triumphalism is good", it's "if Rangers are going to support vulnerable people in society, and they can do that through poppies etc, then I'm fine with that".

[G51]

5 minutes ago, AJF said:

Absolute animal.

When I eventually caught up with them half an hour later to apologise and point them in the right way, they were shocked.

[Dons_1988]

5 minutes ago, G51 said:

I would counter that by saying that launching a campaign to make it clear that expressing sectarian beliefs is intolerable is pretty uncompromising on that position.

To be clear, my argument is not "military triumphalism is good", it's "if Rangers are going to support vulnerable people in society, and they can do that through poppies etc, then I'm fine with that".

I think on both points we're getting into areas we could argue for days as they cover some fairly grey areas. My fairly simple counter would be that my argument is not that raising money for charities is bad, but there are many less controversial ways to do it that might not perpetuate some...stereotypes, shall we say.

I don't think we're a million miles apart on this tbh and it would ruin the fun of an open forum if we reconciled on everything here.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Dons_1988

[AJF]

2 minutes ago, G51 said:

I would counter that by saying that launching a campaign to make it clear that expressing sectarian beliefs is intolerable is pretty uncompromising on that position.

To be clear, my argument is not "military triumphalism is good", it's "if Rangers are going to support vulnerable people in society, and they can do that through poppies etc, then I'm fine with that".

This is my view on it too. They are playing to the large portion of people with Unionist leanings within the support. While they could probably do without it, it does benefit a lot of people and Unionism is not illegal nor comparable with sectarianism or bigotry.

[TheScarf]

1 hour ago, DMCs said:

A lot of people hurting big time from our imminent coronation. Class 

I'm not.  You've been brilliant this season and fully deserve to win the league.  Regardless of the shitshow from your business partners across the city.  I've also really enjoyed watching Rangers in the Europa League this season; swatting aside teams with ease.

 

[HibsFan]

4 hours ago, G51 said:

I’ve no idea when the last time you were at Ibrox was, but the songbook is radically different than it was even ten years ago. We still have progress to make but it’s moving that way quickly. The Club and the fans groups deserve credit for making Everyone Anyone a success and for creating new songs.

The idea that young kids are being indoctrinated into hating Catholics by attending matches at Ibrox is simply laughable, and will therefore be treated as such. Rangers fans in their 20s and 30s generally reflect the Scottish population, which is unsurprising given how broad a cross-section of society they’re pulled from. The percentage of bigots will be roughly similar to that of any support in Scotland, and similar to the nation as a whole.

Also, the perception that 40 of the 42 clubs are family-friendly happy places full of sunshine and good vibes, and the other 2 are dark corners of hell where the most despicable bile gets spewed is... let’s say, inaccurate.

It has absolutely gone the other way.

You used to be shit scared of singing the Billy Boys and then decided to start it up again around 2015 or so as some sort of warped "they all hate us" siege mentality.

Alan Stubbs being asked to cheer up on account of being a sad f*nian b*****d in the 2016 Scottish Cup final, hundreds in pubs singing "we hate Catholics, everybody hates Roman Catholics" to the tune of a fucking Tiffany song. What planet are you on?

[bennett]

1 hour ago, Golden Gordon said:

I might be wrong here, but my understanding of Ranger's 'financial collapse' was that there were unsustainable levels of borrowing from banks, which was no longer possible following the 2008 financial crash, the non-payment of tax through EBTs & the factoring in of guaranteed European revenue, which was not achieved in 2011 after being knocked out of the Champions League & UEFA Cup.

Many might disagree, but questions around whether the consequences to Rangers* were justified, whether the Premiership sides should have had a vote, which league they should have been put in, whether the SFA & SPFL handled the situation correctly, the Italian comparison & whether Celtic's titles were tainted, are secondary considerations.

The most important questions are around David Murray & the Rangers' board's unsustainable borrowing, non-contribution to the exchequer & the impact on public services this had, as well as having no contingency plan if the club found itself in debt.  If I were a Rangers fan I think I would be most concerned about the people running the club in such a cavalier fashion & threatening its existence through their actions 

The thread has moved on from the financial collapse and the discussion is now about Sevco indoctrinating kids into bigotry plus sinister links with staunch American clubs. 

 

 

[Ranaldo Bairn]

And you've been comprehensively ignored throughout.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

2 hours ago, AJF said:

Could it be purely coincidental that Rangers formed a link with a US club that happened to have the word Orange in it's name? Of course it could, but people will see what they want to see.

Basically you're asking for the benefit of the doubt, which is fair enough. However...

There is an "Orange FC" in the lower reaches of the French Pyramid System, Playing in the town of Orange in the Vaucluse which is about the size of Dumfries and situated in what's really Rugby Union Territory

If Rangers form a "strategic partnership" with them then I'm definitely calling shenanigans.

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, G51 said:

Rangers don't own the ground where the scarves etc. are sold by third parties. They have no control over this. FWIW, I don't recall much in the way of sectarian imagery or slogans on the merchandise, but then the last time I bought one of those scarves was a half and half Rangers/Fiorentina one back in 2008 as a souvenir of the UEFA Cup semi, so I'm not particularly clued up on what those guys are selling these days. Regardless, Rangers have no ability to enforce any action. The part regarding the away songbook I addressed earlier.

The assertion that anti-Catholic bigots are "attracted" by Rangers plays into what I mentioned earlier. I think it's easy for a lot of people who don't live in Glasgow/WoS/NI not to acknowledge that this has significantly more to do with the last 400 years of history in NI, and the historic association of Rangers with PULism, than anything the club does to attract them. It's the same for Celtic - all anti-Protestant bigots support Celtic, regardless of what Celtic actually do. This is a problem that is too big for football clubs to combat - it needs a wider change in society.

I know that Rangers don't sell the tat outside the ground, but I don't for a moment believe that they're as powerless as you suggest in the face of it.  They could maybe also not ban journalists for accurately reporting arrests for sectarianism.

I wasn't referring to an "away songbook".  Steve Clarke was called a "****** b*****d" by many thousands of people in unison at Ibrox.  

I take it your last paragraph represents a rowing back on the absurd suggestion that all clubs will have similar proportions of bigoted fans in their supports?

[Sortmeout]

15 hours ago, AJF said:

Sorry, I’m confused by what you’ve said here.

Are you saying that by choosing to go to Ibrox, I am promoting that bigotry is okay

 

Yes I am saying that you are saying “this is ok” (if you take your kids or anyone else who may feel you are a role model) to Ibrox or Celtic Park on a regular basis.

In a similar way to me being ok with people swearing around my daughter if I ever took her to Rugby Park.  If Kilmarnock fans as a majority decided that after this pandemic we were going to go full blown with the bigotry or sectarianism every game then neither myself or my daughter would ever be back. 
 

It’s pretty simple when you think about it.

[Dundee Hibernian]

13 hours ago, BFTD said:

I always thought Charles Green & co. should have taken over some non-league team in the far north of England. I doubt the morality of killing another team would've been an issue, and a lot of Rangers fans were used to travelling long distances to games anyway. They'd likely be a Football League club by now, even if the owners fucked up as badly as they did during the "journey" through Scotland's lower leagues; maybe even a Premier League side if things had gone really well.

But, hey, this falls into the category of 'alternative utopian reality'. And we'd still have been stuck with Celtic.

My recall was HK based Ibrox supporters and investors  Barry Scott and Andy Ross (and George Latham?) tried to buy Workington Reds around 2012-2013, ostensibly in order to run a 'Rangers' south of the border in a way you describe.

13 hours ago, Arch Stanton said:

That was absolute dugshite. 

Stewart Gilmour, George Campbell, Brian MacAusland, Allan Marshall, Gordon Scott, ? Purves and I can't recall the last guy's name...they were all die-hard St, Mirren fans who had already rejected numerous takeovers (including Div's Argentinian consortium) and were never going to sell their shares to anyone other than a Saints fan.

Looked up some detail. It emerged that  in January 2012, one month prior to Rangers going into administration, the company secretary at Ibrox was involved as the lawyer for a group trying to take over the Buddies. The company secretary was the late Gary Withey, the group involved Paul Davies and Kenneth McGeoch, who had an acrimonious falling out with fellow directors thereafter. Nonetheless, I think he's still at the club.

5 hours ago, G51 said:

I’ve no idea when the last time you were at Ibrox was, but the songbook is radically different than it was even ten years ago. We still have progress to make but it’s moving that way quickly. The Club and the fans groups deserve credit for making Everyone Anyone a success and for creating new songs.

The idea that young kids are being indoctrinated into hating Catholics by attending matches at Ibrox is simply laughable, and will therefore be treated as such. Rangers fans in their 20s and 30s generally reflect the Scottish population, which is unsurprising given how broad a cross-section of society they’re pulled from. The percentage of bigots will be roughly similar to that of any support in Scotland, and similar to the nation as a whole.

I'll back you up on this: the last two games I've watched involving my team at Ibrox have not been accompanied by sectarian singing and chanting from the crowd in attendance. 

Nonetheless, I was astounded to see advertised on my stream the 'Heart and Hand' podcast as being major sponsors of the clubs output. The excellent Clive Tyldesley even mentioned them during his commentary. Given the much touted Everyone Anyone project being conducted, it stuck me that there is a part within the club still pandering to sectarianism. Similarly the fixation with Orange merchandising.

5 hours ago, Drew Brees said:

Shameful sectarian graffiti has been plastered on the side of a Glasgow bridge.

The words 'Kill all *****s' were written on Kingston Bridge next to the River Clyde with union jack colours in the background. 

***** is a derogatory term used to describe Catholics.

Don't think you can blame the Ibrox club for vandals painting offensively on public property. Even so, it's noticeable that a lot more such graffiti has appeared in the past year throughout the country, as though it is part of an underground campaign.

4 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

Ibrox has improved since my first visit there in the early 2000's, in the stadium at least. I think it's worth acknowledging that and it's disingenuous not to.

However, most people here's experience of Rangers fans would be the away support that go round the country. And they have not improved in the slightest. They clearly revel in promoting the Rangers 'culture'. Not to mention that I've noticed outside Ibrox I wouldn't have too much trouble buying a scarf celebrating the UVF or King Billy.

I'm still far from convinced that the club has much desire to distance itself from its 'roots', as long as it stays within certain lines. Much like Nigel Farage is happy to have some of his 'traditional' backers, as long as they don't blurt out something overtly racist in public.

I would say that culturally Rangers is far from the happy, wholesome club you would hope it to be, but credit where it's due for getting its house in order on match days.

I agree, and it's disappointing to see so many young fans embracing the gang mentality of group sectarianism.

 

[BFTD]

1 minute ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

My recall was HK based Ibrox supporters and investors Barry Scott and Andy Ross (and George Latham?) tried to buy Workington Reds around 2012-2013, ostensibly in order to run a 'Rangers' south of the border in a way you describe.

Wow. So it was almost, BANG - and the Gers are gone!

(sorry)

[Arch Stanton]

11 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Looked up some detail. It emerged that  in January 2012, one month prior to Rangers going into administration, the company secretary at Ibrox was involved as the lawyer for a group trying to take over the Buddies. The company secretary was the late Gary Withey, the group involved Paul Davies and Kenneth McGeoch, who had an acrimonious falling out with fellow directors thereafter. Nonetheless, I think he's still at the club.

McGeoch, yes the one name I couldn't remember. Although a director at that time he was very much a minor shareholder compared to Gilmour, Campbell and Scott who were consistent in their position that they would only sell to someone St. Mirren minded.

The p***k was given short shrift and booted off the board.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/17947398

[Monkey Tennis]

5 hours ago, DMCs said:

A lot of people hurting big time from our imminent coronation. Class 

That doesn't make much sense really.

There were many, many more posts of the nature you're referring to, back when Rangers were failing to win a third of their games in the bottom tier, or failing to win the Challenge Cup in their first three attempts.

[AJF]

3 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I know that Rangers don't sell the tat outside the ground, but I don't for a moment believe that they're as powerless as you suggest in the face of it. 

Rangers just recently announced they are ramping up their efforts to protect the brand by tackling counterfeit merchandise which suggests they are looking at this aspect.

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, AJF said:

Rangers just recently announced they are ramping up their efforts to protect the brand by tackling counterfeit merchandise which suggests they are looking at this aspect.

Good.  That's welcome.

As ever though, the motive is commercial, rather than moral.

It reminds me of the appeals over sectarian singing.  They rarely highlight that such behaviour is fucking despicable, preferring to highlight that doing it might harm Rangers.

[AmericanFan]

23 hours ago, Drew Brees said:

Is it the accents?