Tory Lies, Corruption and Hypocrisy- Add Them Here

[Pocketman]

Mogg. Knighthood. Sigh. 

[Frank Quitely]

42 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

Exactly this. On the one had, bemoan the lack of integration and on the other but every possible barrier up to integration, while at the same time, attempt to make people fear them.

Interestingly, compared to England, Scotland has a far more integrated imigration population and completely correlated has a more positive attitude to imigration.

Yes, there are whole areas of say north west English towns that have little integration either way, but that is a massive failure of generations of policies.

The UK clusters various groups of peoples and then wonders why they don't integrate or others treat them with suspicion. For every Suella Braverman and Rishi Sunek who grew up in integrated societies and schooling, there are dozens/hundreds of 2nd/3rd generation immigrants who do not and whose interactions with others outside their own community is disproportionately negative.

The argument over small boat migrants isn't actually an argument over small boat migrants, it's over a very fragmented society of which, despite their ethnicities, the likes of Braverman and Sunek have absolutely no idea. To them, it might be boats, to those actually listening and agreeing with them, it is something else entirely and that is very dangerous. 

Scotland would do well to avoid any complacency, as the levels of immigration are proportionally less than other areas of the UK and we simply don't how attitudes would be should that situation alter dramatically in times to come.

As such, whilst levels of overt racism may unfortunately be much more evident in England, I have no doubt that the so far individual cases up here could easily develop into something much worse should the societal mix alter significantly.

As for a fragmented society, that has been a global pattern over centuries.  Resident populations are wary and fearful of incomers, and the latter often form 'societies' in geographic areas based on ethnic, cultural and religious background.  New York is a good example of how the 'melting pot' theory takes a long time to achieve.

Tolerance itself won't achieve integration and harmony, it must be accompanied by economic opportunity, educational attainment and fairness for all.  But that also requires immigrants to participate fully and for the uniform application of the rule of law.

Britain is failing dismally on this critique.  At one end of the spectrum we have right-wing hatred straight from the 1930's masquerading as Government policy, and at the other a failure to root out hatred-inspiring crimes like grooming gangs.  

[oneteaminglasgow]

34 minutes ago, Frank Quitely said:

the other a failure to root out hatred-inspiring crimes like grooming gangs.  

Not wanting to have a go at you, but this is a deeply off thing to say. Leaving aside the fact that “grooming gangs” in itself is a dog whistle term, I don’t think it should be incumbent upon anyone to root out problematic behaviour within immigrant communities any more than they would in non-immigrant communities.

Also, if you see, for example, child sexual abuse by some men of Pakistani origin, and that inspires hatred towards all men of Pakistani origin, do you not think that that maybe says something about you or the way in which the media have reported the crime, as opposed to saying something about the wider Pakistani community? 

[Theyellowbox]

46 minutes ago, Frank Quitely said:

Scotland would do well to avoid any complacency, as the levels of immigration are proportionally less than other areas of the UK and we simply don't how attitudes would be should that situation alter dramatically in times to come.

As such, whilst levels of overt racism may unfortunately be much more evident in England, I have no doubt that the so far individual cases up here could easily develop into something much worse should the societal mix alter significantly.

As for a fragmented society, that has been a global pattern over centuries.  Resident populations are wary and fearful of incomers, and the latter often form 'societies' in geographic areas based on ethnic, cultural and religious background.  New York is a good example of how the 'melting pot' theory takes a long time to achieve.

Tolerance itself won't achieve integration and harmony, it must be accompanied by economic opportunity, educational attainment and fairness for all.  But that also requires immigrants to participate fully and for the uniform application of the rule of law.

Britain is failing dismally on this critique.  At one end of the spectrum we have right-wing hatred straight from the 1930's masquerading as Government policy, and at the other a failure to root out hatred-inspiring crimes like grooming gangs.  

I think you are right to flag that Scotland shouldn't get complacent, but one of the things that sets Scotland apart from a lot of England is the flow and integration of imigration. For example, in Scotland, we have had multiple periods of Polish imigration. During WW2, many Polish soldiers remained here and married into Scottish families, proportionately more than other parts of the UK yor geographical reasons. When the next 'wave' of Poles arrived in the first decade of this century, many already had extended 2nd/3rd generation Scots here already and so tended to integrate a little more than the did in other parts of the UK.

See also Asian imigration. There is no solely Asian areas in Scotland in the same way you might see in say Bradford or Bolton. Any first generation Asians arriving in Scotland now, will not have an 'area' they are placed or drawn to and what 2nd/3rd/4th generation Asian heritage Scots they do encounter, will be very well integrated into Scottish society.

This 'slow drip' on imigration into Scotland means we don't have the same issues as England and probably means the same blunt tools on imigration policy don't apply here.

Using the new york example, the centuries of different waves of mass migration, English, Dutch, German, southern states, Irish, Italian and Hispanic has pretty much all been met with hysteria over 'too much imigration' from the previous wave of immigrants. This is exactly what Braverman is doing here and Trump is doing in the states. 'My recent relatives imigration was OK, but we are full now'.....

[Cheese]

The British Social Attitudes Surveys showed that Scottish and English opinions on immigration are pretty similar tbh.

https://www.whatscotlandthinks.org/analysis/do-scotland-and-england-wales-have-different-views-about-immigration/

 

[BFTD]

I've been hearing the "Scotland's lucky, it doesn't have to put up with them" stuff from racists for decades. We had one on here who memorably told a terrifying story about the time he was on a bus in London and realised that nobody else on the bus was white!  

The story finished there, but I assume they all must have jumped him and twisted his nipples or something.

[ScotiaNostra]

1 hour ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

The British Social Attitudes Surveys showed that Scottish and English opinions on immigration are pretty similar tbh.

https://www.whatscotlandthinks.org/analysis/do-scotland-and-england-wales-have-different-views-about-immigration/

 

Rightly or wrongly, I have always felt Scotland was at least as racist as any country I have lived in. 

[GNU_Linux]

One thing that's always bothered re: the subject at hand is the concept of 'integration' that no-one seems to ever define or elaborate on. The irony is any given definition would show normal island to be a smidge hypocritical if your stereotypical ex-pat in Spain is anything to go by.

[BFTD]

4 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

One thing that's always bothered re: the subject at hand is the concept of 'integration' that no-one seems to ever define or elaborate on. The irony is any given definition would show normal island to be a smidge hypocritical if your stereotypical ex-pat in Spain is anything to go by.

As a dyed in the wool misanthrope, the concept of integration disgusts me, but people who bang on about it mean that immigrants should leave everything about themselves and their home country at Dover, before throwing themselves wholeheartedly into binge drinking, kiddy-on Christianity, cricket, and blind distrust of anything beyond British waters.

I can think of quite a few born-and bred British people who'd fail any integration tests that the government might like to inflict on us, including myself.

[Theyellowbox]

51 minutes ago, BTFD said:

I've been hearing the "Scotland's lucky, it doesn't have to put up with them" stuff from racists for decades. We had one on here who memorably told a terrifying story about the time he was on a bus in London and realised that nobody else on the bus was white!  

The story finished there, but I assume they all must have jumped him and twisted his nipples or something.

When folk say something such as that, you should hit them that are are 'lucky to have them'. Personally, my view is Scotland is all the better for the imigration we have. Adds to the mix of culture we have, but also replenishes an otherwise shrinking population. 

7 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

One thing that's always bothered re: the subject at hand is the concept of 'integration' that no-one seems to ever define or elaborate on. The irony is any given definition would show normal island to be a smidge hypocritical if your stereotypical ex-pat in Spain is anything to go by.

I don't think there is such a thing as a British culture for people to integrate into, which is the issue.

What you or I may define as something for people to integrate into, would be wildly different from someone in say Kent.

The ex pat in Spain may pine for cups of tea (lovely plantations in yorkshire), fish and chips (from iberia) and the German Royal family, but we all know that they are ignorant to the truth that most of us are only a few generations away from immigrant ancestors and our entire ways of life and 'Britishness' encompasses multiple impacts of imigration to the UK. 

 

[BFTD]

^^^ pretty much all that

[Cheese]

48 minutes ago, BTFD said:

I can think of quite a few born-and bred British people who'd fail any integration tests that the government might like to inflict on us, including myself.

https://lifeintheuktests.co.uk/life-in-the-uk-test/

A week's R&R on the Bibby Stockholm for any poster who fails the test.

[carpetmonster]

I’ve no fucking idea when St David’s Day is

 

[oneteaminglasgow]

Could’ve gone for any of those and been correct, tbh. 

[BFTD]

21 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

I’ve no fucking idea when St David’s Day is

 

Exactly the same score here.

As usual, I'm struggling to understand how anyone could think any of that is in any way important to living life in the UK. Like Tesco should be showing people pictures of flegs before selling them milk, or the council will demand to know where Snowdonia is before taking your Council Tax payment. I'd be more suspicious of anyone from abroad who could recite this stuff on demand. 

Just now, oneteaminglasgow said:

Could’ve gone for any of those and been correct, tbh. 

Every one of those tests seems to have an nationalistic ego w**k that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Looking after the environment and treating others with fairness are absolutely not fundamental principles of British life, and surely only a politician would disagree.

[Salvo Montalbano]

4 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

Could’ve gone for any of those and been correct, tbh. 

Those things being uniquely British of course, as there are no other counties where looking after the environment, treating people fairly and looking after yourself and family are important to the general citizenry. In most places these days probably more so.

[Alert Mongoose]

Those surely aren't real questions? Are they?!

Roast fucking Beef.

[Cheese]

Luv me roast beef 

Luv me history

95.83%

Simple as.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

The American test is equally ridiculous: 100q.pdf (uscis.gov)

[DA Baracus]

That's me off lads. Suella will have the van round shortly.