European Super League.

[Rob1885]

For the EFL/EPL to keep the numbers the same you either bring in Celtic (60k), Rangers (50k), Hearts (20k), Hibs (20k) and Aberdeen (15k) or promote Hartlepool, Sutton, Torquay, Stockport, Wrexham and Halifax who all get crowds of around 2,000 except Wrexham who get maybe 4-5k. Also those attendances for Scottish clubs could increase you would imagine. 
The Premier League is about to lose its 6 biggest clubs which are the main draw for sponsors and TV channels. The money will drop quickly and so will the quality of player on show as a result. With the lower quality of football and the absence of the big 6, I'd imagine the biggest average attendance would be maybe 50,000 for West Ham or Newcastle. Aside from Aston Villa or Everton I'd be surprised if there is any other club that brings in over 30k on a week to week basis. Aside from the 4 English clubs I mentioned the next best attendance is Leicester with 32k. And again you would imagine this could go down. 
Whilst I don't think it will happen bringing in 5 Premier League or Championship sized clubs to the set up is surely not a crazy suggestion. These English clubs left behind are in danger and would surely be considering all options at the moment. 

Where on earth have you pulled Sutton and Stockport from? [emoji23]

[HTG]

5 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

There is no chance the professional game will make the fundamental structural changes required to distribute resources more evenly across clubs. That ship has absolutely sailed.

 

 

Correct. The revised CL rules are abhorrent irrespective of this new product coming in. Basically all the big teams get into the CL based on previous performance - because they're currently too shite to beat West Ham.

Anyway, the outcome here is that the EPL is fucked if this thing flies. 

[Savage Henry]

9 minutes ago, HTG said:

Correct. The revised CL rules are abhorrent irrespective of this new product coming in. Basically all the big teams get into the CL based on previous performance - because they're currently too shite to beat West Ham.

Anyway, the outcome here is that the EPL is fucked if this thing flies. 

Will it be?   I'm not sure the loss of Spurs and Arsenal is that much of a catastrophe.    I might argue that both competitions are already FUBAR anyway.   

 

[coprolite]

55 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

These clubs still want to win the league every season.

To me it seems like they want to kill any chance of a new club appearing and sustaining any form of challenge. Leicester winning the league and building from that, arguably surpassing Arsenal, plus the threat of a billionaire buying Newcastle etc., will have spooked them.

If they can have their foot on everyone's throat, and make sure they're the only ones who can reach the money tree, they'll be happy.

UEFA will fall in line once they get their share.

I think this is probably the issue though. This cartel might not want Uefa to have a share. 

[Guest TheJTS98]

3 minutes ago, coprolite said:

I think this is probably the issue though. This cartel might not want Uefa to have a share. 

Giving UEFA their share defeats the whole purpose.

[Hedgecutter]

For me, seeing as this is almost certainly going ahead, the easiest thing for the non-Super6 to do is essentially say "feel free to bugger off to your Kirin Cup type tournament.  Although it might have more money, it won't have the prestige and history of the ECL or even the EPL, so if you want to field weakened teams in the proper tournaments and give us a better chance of winning them then that would be great, thanks".

It won't matter what the fans of the Super 6 say, and they'll just get riled if nobody else recognises it as the pinnacle of club football.  You just need to look at Sevco fans with nobody else buying into the '55' nonsense that they're desperately trying to push.   

Taking a step back, it's a bit of a minter that the other clubs are only interested in tournaments if a select few clubs are focussed on them.  If they're primarily interested in hanging onto the coat-tails of others when they have the greater opportunity to win their existing league, then f*** the lot of them.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Hedgecutter

[G51]

1 minute ago, Hedgecutter said:

For me, seeing as this is almost certainly going ahead, the easiest thing for the non-Super6 to do is essentially say "feel free to bugger off to your little mini-league club tournament.  Although it might have more money, it won't have the prestige of the ECL or even the EPL

lol

without the top 20 teams, the CL effectively becomes the Europa. which is a nice little tournament, but the ESL would easily be more prestigious than that on account of having all the best teams and players in it.

 

[Guest TheJTS98]

7 minutes ago, Hedgecutter said:

For me, seeing as this is almost certainly going ahead, the easiest thing for the non-Super6 to do is essentially say "feel free to bugger off to your little mini-league club tournament.  Although it might have more money, it won't have the prestige of the ECL or even the EPL, so if you want to field weakened teams in the proper tournaments (all for the Kirin Cup of club football) and give us a better chance of winning the proper ones then that would be great".

It won't matter what the fans of the Super 6 say, and they'll just get riled if nobody else recognises it.  You just need to look at Sevco fans with nobody else buying into the '55' nonsense that they're desperately trying to push.   

Taking a step back, it's a bit of a minter that the other clubs are only interested in tournaments if a select few clubs are focussed on them.  If they're primarily interested in hanging onto the coat-tails of others when they have the greater opportunity to win their existing league, then f*** the lot of them.

It's a nice idea, but as soon as this goes ahead the Premier League's standing is diminished.

The ESL becomes the priority and their presence in the Premier League becomes possibly about blooding young players and building a side, but there's no real compulsion to go and win the Premier League. There'll be no real reward for doing so in the face of the money they make from the ESL, and there'll be no consequences to not winning it.

If the 6 richest teams in a league don't have that league as their priority, then that league is toast in terms of being taken seriously.

It's like everyone getting together to try to pretend the FA Cup still really matters. It's gone. It's over.

And since the Champions League will have lost its big hitters, nobody will bother watching that anymore. Same thing. You can't fool people into thinking it's something it's not.

Edited April 20, 2021 by TheJTS98

[coprolite]

10 minutes ago, G51 said:

lol

without the top 20 teams, the CL effectively becomes the Europa. which is a nice little tournament, but the ESL would easily be more prestigious than that on account of having all the best teams and players in it.

 

It might be. Not sure about easily more prestigious though.  

All tbe best teams are not in it. Some are.

The guaranteed presence of Spurs, Arsenal and Athletico Madrid makes it all a bit Europa leaguey. 

Players might not be that keen if it harms their wc chances. And they're apparently talking about a wage cap, so psg etc could maybe pay more. 

My guess is it's a stalking horse to get a two division champions league, with probably some continuity that doesn't depend on domestic placings. 

As someone who hasn't watched the champions league in about 10 years, and has just had to look up what teams are currently in the EPL, this all feels very remote, club wise. 

I am genuinely concerned about a split governing body for international tournaments though. Although on the brightside, we could end up with a Scotland  xi holding the equivalent of a WBA interim world title, which would be nice. 

 

 

[Forest_Fifer]

Where on earth have you pulled Sutton and Stockport from? [emoji23]

2nd and 4th in the National league, I guess?

[Hedgecutter]

1 hour ago, TheJTS98 said:

If the 6 richest teams in a league don't have that league as their priority, then that league is toast in terms of being taken seriously.

It's like everyone getting together to try to pretend the FA Cup still really matters. It's gone. It's over.

And since the Champions League will have lost its big hitters, nobody will bother watching that anymore. Same thing. You can't fool people into thinking it's something it's not.

It's clearly all about perception, but no club or minority of clubs should be bigger than the tournament imo.  As pointed out above, not every top club has joined (yet).  If that's not seen to be the case by the majority then it makes a complete mockery of the setup and the other teams are just digging their own graves if they play along with it.  There's not really any other alternative for them.

You can argue that Celtic's wins over most of the past decade have been cheapened without some form of Rangers in the top flight half the time, but the whole 10iar chat shows that they valued every league win just as much as they ever have.  I know that's not a direct comparison as it only involves one team, but if both Celtic/Rangers were to join some midweek British Elite League and field weakened teams in the Scottish Premiership then Aberdeen/Hibs would certainly be counting any Premiership wins as valid ones (no * beside the name required) regardless of any perceived cheapening.  You'd probably see crowds up as they fight for them too, although I appreciate the likes of Premier Sports would want nothing to do with the Premiership. 

The point here is that it just seems like one mindset for one thing and a different one when it comes to the ESL.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Hedgecutter

[topcat(The most tip top)]

16 minutes ago, coprolite said:

It might be. Not sure about easily more prestigious though.  

All tbe best teams are not in it. Some are.

The guaranteed presence of Spurs, Arsenal and Athletico Madrid makes it all a bit Europa leaguey. 

Players might not be that keen if it harms their wc chances. And they're apparently talking about a wage cap, so psg etc could maybe pay more. 

My guess is it's a stalking horse to get a two division champions league, with probably some continuity that doesn't depend on domestic placings. 

As someone who hasn't watched the champions league in about 10 years, and has just had to look up what teams are currently in the EPL, this all feels very remote, club wise. 

I am genuinely concerned about a split governing body for international tournaments though. Although on the brightside, we could end up with a Scotland  xi holding the equivalent of a WBA interim world title, which would be nice. 

 

 

The Alphabet soup of Boxing is an extreme case but it's  still appropriate. The governance of Professional boxing has descended into such a farce that MMA is now a serious sport.

Other parallels can be drawn with Kerry Packer's World Series Cricket in the late 1970's the AFL which was in direct competition with the NFL in the '60s till they merged and given that they're talking about dumbing down the game to chase money it's also a bit like the formation of Rugby League

[DMCs]

24 minutes ago, coprolite said:

It might be. Not sure about easily more prestigious though.  

All tbe best teams are not in it. Some are

With the money involved all the permanent Super League teams would quickly and clearly become the best in the world.

[Gaz]

1 hour ago, Jacksgranda said:

There's half a dozen teams in the Championship with bigger average attendances than Aberdeen, Hearts & Hibs.

 

1 hour ago, Rob1885 said:

Where on earth have you pulled Sutton and Stockport from?

 

41 minutes ago, Snafu said:

I think you guys are missing the lad's point.

He's not suggesting these teams are promoted to the Premier League. He's suggesting that you would need six teams to make up the numbers. You'd bump everyone up six spaces and that'd leave six spaces at the bottom of L2.

[Ross.]

12 sides with approximately £3.3bn of debt to financial institutions between them, and a similar sum owed to others. Covid hammered turnover and their bankers are forcing them to hit the panic button. How the rest respond will be interesting.

I'm of the "f**k them, kick them out their leagues and let them get on with it" viewpoint. I think the Super League clubs have far more to lose than the domestic leagues they will leave behind. There would of course be a period of readjustment while TV money is negotiated down, and player wages follow suit, but that will pretty much only affect England, Spain and Italy. The overwhelming majority of European football leagues are watched for the most part by domestic viewers or foreign based nationals.

The new format promoted by UEFA is a disappointment, but if the Super League does go ahead then they(UEFA) have much more scope to change things at the next opportunity. I wouldn't be surprised to see them trying to base something on the Nations League format, though how that plays out alongside domestic leagues I'm not entirely sure.

Yes, the Super League clubs will hoover up the best talent, but again, that won't affect most of Europe as that is the case anyway. You will maybe get lucky and have a few gems turn up before they are seduced by the money elsewhere, but that is the norm right now as it is.

The Super League will have plenty of money and star names, but it won't be seen as real football. The people pushing it won't care about that as long as the star names turn up and the money keeps coming in. The rest of us will enjoy going to a ground, watching our teams, drinking away our frustrations and complaining about that stupid sand dancing c**t on the wing, all the while feeling superior for doing so.

[coprolite]

9 minutes ago, DMCs said:

With the money involved all the permanent Super League teams would quickly and clearly become the best in the world.

Maybe. 

Jp Morgan isn't the only source of money though. 

Maybe the smaller field in the Champions league encourages the next Sultan of Brunei to buy Ajax, or some ex kgb kleptocrat plough a couple of bn into Celtic. Maybe qatar up PSGs budget because they can. 

Maybe US based businessy owners are more interested in dividends than competing with vanity project superstar wages. 

[DMCs]

Just now, coprolite said:

Maybe. 

Jp Morgan isn't the only source of money though. 

Maybe the smaller field in the Champions league encourages the next Sultan of Brunei to buy Ajax, or some ex kgb kleptocrat plough a couple of bn into Celtic. Maybe qatar up PSGs budget because they can. 

Maybe US based businessy owners are more interested in dividends than competing with vanity project superstar wages. 

I mean at the moment Spurs are only less than €140m euros in revenue behind both PSG and Bayern. That would easily be made up if the Super League goes ahead.

Ultimately it comes down to whether fans migrate over to the SL from the Champions League. I think a huge number will.

[Sweet Pete]

18 minutes ago, Gaz said:

 

 

I think you guys are missing the lad's point.

He's not suggesting these teams are promoted to the Premier League. He's suggesting that you would need six teams to make up the numbers. You'd bump everyone up six spaces and that'd leave six spaces at the bottom of L2.

Everyone got the point as far as I can see, Gaz. It's just that it was a daft point. You don't need Aberdeen to prop up Engligh league numbers. As they have a true pyramid, you move everyone up 6 places all the way down the pyramid, where near the bottom a reshuffle is required. People are laughing at the suggestion that Hearts will be invited to play in England.

[Hedgecutter]

1 minute ago, coprolite said:

Maybe. 

Jp Morgan isn't the only source of money though. 

Maybe the smaller field in the Champions league encourages the next Sultan of Brunei to buy Ajax, or some ex kgb kleptocrat plough a couple of bn into Celtic. Maybe qatar up PSGs budget because they can. 

Maybe US based businessy owners are more interested in dividends than competing with vanity project superstar wages. 

Highly feasible and would probably just result in the type of scenario that American Football had back in the day where you had NFC and AFC.  As I quite like the NFL, I'd find some NFL-style ESL vs ECL divisions in a 'EFL' a good laugh.

[The Moonster]

18 minutes ago, Ross. said:

I'm of the "f**k them, kick them out their leagues and let them get on with it" viewpoint.

Same. If any club is desperate for the billionaires league they can wire in, but they should be removed from domestic competition. If they want to come back after their 23 year deal is up then they can start at the bottom of the pyramid. None of that will happen though and the big clubs will get what they want. 

I don't really understand the clamour for it - I find the majority of big Champions League games dull as f**k as it is, you couldn't pay me to watch an ESL. Wee VL Fifa players are the only ones who seem to revel in it.